Linger for stat gain, or dive through?

[Chud]

Do people usually linger around the stat gain levels (which are what anyway, 30-40 or so?) until you've done most of the gaining, or do you usually plow straight through and they are just "stat gain" levels because that's where the potions start to show up regularly?

The competition stuff has started me thinking about ways to lower turn count, and not lingering (anywhere really) seems like the main thing...

[Hariolor]

I'm of the feeling that diving as low as you can go (ideally DL 98/99) is advisable given:

1) Adequate HP already (500+)
2) Adequate speed (Base 10+)
3) reliable means of detection and escapes
4) rBase + several luxury resists

If you can meet all of these, or even 3/4, it's worth a shot. I've found that stat potions are just as common, if not more common deeper down. As are !experience and !augmentation, which are very nice to get.

Just be very very cautious, and focus on killing things you know you can handle. Ideally pits of red dragons. Easy to get double resist (or even immunity) for fire. Fire also doesn't harm potions, whereas cold does). Make sure to TO the ancient wyrms if your HP are low, and avoid letting multiple breaths hit you at once...


*caveat - I am assuming that you gain some items and levels/HP in the process of getting from the 40s to the 90s. If you just read ?deep descent 25 times, then you're a braver player than I.

[Derakon]

Dive through. The game's much more interesting when you're pushing yourself, and the best way to do that is to keep diving. Never get comfortable where you are.

[Timo Pietilä]

Do people usually linger around the stat gain levels (which are what anyway, 30-40 or so?) until you've done most of the gaining, or do you usually plow straight through and they are just "stat gain" levels because that's where the potions start to show up regularly?

Basically just depths where you start to find stat-potions. "stat-gain" is basically an area where you can develop your char without being risk of getting insta-killed, it used to be rather sharp 1500'-~2000' because you usually didn't find any poison resist, and 2000 and deeper there was very rapid increase in danger (monsters like Greater Titans, Dracolisks and Dracolichs appeared, AMHD and Drolem were insta-killer without poison resist etc.). Now that danger curve has been smoothed quite a bit.

The competition stuff has started me thinking about ways to lower turn count, and not lingering (anywhere really) seems like the main thing...

"lingering" itself is not a problem, you can stop at any time if you just are deep enough to gain what you need (which usually is the deeper the better). Problem is to cut down all the unnecessary movements. You use 90%+ of your turns just moving around. Roaming in shops causes a lot of movements, testing different equipment combinations use turns, searching levels uses turns, digging open GV:s uses a lot of turns and so on.

IMO counting turns causes you to play sub-optimal playstyle, it is rather boring way of playing, and it gives you less great items in real time used.

[bulian]

The most efficient stat gain levels are actually DL60-70, as even easy mobs (orc pits, novice XX, etc.) reliably drop potions. This is due to the drop formula being average of monster level and dungeon level.

[Derakon]

IMO counting turns causes you to play sub-optimal playstyle, it is rather boring way of playing, and it gives you less great items in real time used.

On the flipside, trying to reduce player turns gives me a more interesting playstyle, as I'm penalized for being inefficient in terms of in-game time, which creates tradeoffs for tactically-strong but slow options, like digging ASCs or resting after a big fight. Taking time out to recover is less interesting than pushing on even though I'm badly wounded. Optimizing movement patterns is mostly just a minor space puzzle to solve with a few spare brain cycles.

(In other words, everyone plays the game differently. Your playstyle is not superior, nor is it inferior, except when measured using certain specific quantifications, e.g. player turns.)

I'm curious what you think has changed about the 2000' area to smooth out the danger curve.

[Timo Pietilä]

The most efficient stat gain levels are actually DL60-70, as even easy mobs (orc pits, novice XX, etc.) reliably drop potions. This is due to the drop formula being average of monster level and dungeon level.

That was changed a while a back to max(mlevel,dlvl), I don't know if it has been changed back to average yet. There was quite a bit discussion about that a while ago and devs seem to agree that this averaging should go back so that there would be some difference do you kill a pit of orcs or pit of ancient dragons deep in dungeon.

[pampl]

That was changed a while a back to max(mlevel,dlvl), I don't know if it has been changed back to average yet. There was quite a bit discussion about that a while ago and devs seem to agree that this averaging should go back so that there would be some difference do you kill a pit of orcs or pit of ancient dragons deep in dungeon.

ATM it's max(average,dlvl) so you still gain some benefit if killing OOD monsters but after floor 40 you might as well kill the orcs as the ancient dragons.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm curious what you think has changed about the 2000' area to smooth out the danger curve.

Lesser titans: dlvl 40 -> 56, Greater titans: dlvl 46 -> 66, Dracolich and Dracolisk: dlvl 46 -> 55, Great Crystal drake dlvl 41 -> 45, and quite a few others moved deeper.

Checking the monster.txt AMHD and Drolem seem to be same though. I was sure that they were changed too.

However DLV at ~2000' could contain all of the above, and Dracolich or Greater titan at that depth could spell instant death. Single-resist cold breath = 388 points of damage, Nether 550, Greater titan tele-to with heavy confusion melee: trapped, hurting (badly).

Also items like healing potions, lesser speed-items and stores have been improved, so that getting what you need before meeting them has become easier.

[Timo Pietilä]

ATM it's max(average,dlvl) so you still gain some benefit if killing OOD monsters but after floor 40 you might as well kill the orcs as the ancient dragons.

IMO that would be better with max(mlvl,average) than other way around. Killing deep monster in vault would give you its native level items, and monsters shallower than dlvl still benefit for you being deeper, but just not that much.

[Derakon]

I'm pretty sure Pampl got it backwards: you don't get penalized for killing a monster that is shallower than it is supposed to be, but you do get penalized for killing a monster that is deeper than it should be. A small kobold at 4000' drops stuff from 2000', but if you killed Gothmog (native to 4750') at 2000' you'd still get 4750'-native drops.

[Timo Pietilä]

I'm pretty sure Pampl got it backwards: you don't get penalized for killing a monster that is shallower than it is supposed to be, but you do get penalized for killing a monster that is deeper than it should be. A small kobold at 4000' drops stuff from 2000', but if you killed Gothmog (native to 4750') at 2000' you'd still get 4750'-native drops.

IIRC that is what the consensus was when that discussion about averaging the monster drop ended.

[pampl]

I'm pretty sure Pampl got it backwards: you don't get penalized for killing a monster that is shallower than it is supposed to be, but you do get penalized for killing a monster that is deeper than it should be. A small kobold at 4000' drops stuff from 2000', but if you killed Gothmog (native to 4750') at 2000' you'd still get 4750'-native drops.

Whoops, you're right; not sure how I misread that.

[dhegler]

***Also items like healing potions, lesser speed-items and stores have been improved, so that getting what you need before meeting them has become easier.***

How did stores get improved? The main difference I see is that the equipment stores even more rarely have ego-type items...

[Timo Pietilä]

***Also items like healing potions, lesser speed-items and stores have been improved, so that getting what you need before meeting them has become easier.***

How did stores get improved? The main difference I see is that the equipment stores even more rarely have ego-type items...

No guaranteed ammunition, healing or even recall scrolls, enchantment scrolls were rarity.