Save the hounds... again.

[buzzkill]

My first impression of the hounds I've encountered (V 3.2) has been less than daunting. The packs just just seems too small to make then a credible threat, or even a credible annoyance. I'll revisit this thread to supplement my opinion as I progress into hound heavy territory. It's nice to see that the jackals were left alone .

[Magnate]

My first impression of the hounds I've encountered (V 3.2) has been less than daunting. The packs just just seems too small to make then a credible threat, or even a credible annoyance. I'll revisit this thread to supplement my opinion as I progress into hound heavy territory. It's nice to see that the jackals were left alone .

Did someone reduce pack size? I don't remember that. I remember changing the rarities of hound packs, but once a pack is generated it should be as big as ever.

[buzzkill]

It seems that what I've encountered so far have been the the 5-10 hound range, though admittedly not very many yet and I'm nearly to DL30. I'm not particularly stealthy. Maybe I'm just encountering partial packs that managed to wake and track me down. As I said, I'll revisit. I just wanted to spit it out before I got preoccupied with something else and forgot. Otherwise, I'm enjoying my 3.2 romp.

[Sirridan]

Hounds are *always* awake, but I have noticed smaller packs as well. At least of the base 4. Gravity hounds are still in their large, instakilling pack sizes.

[MKula]

I'm currently around DL40, and I'm finding their rarity to be "just right"; not too common, not too rare. Especially the rarer types (I'm looking at you, Gravity) are just rare enough to induce that "oh crap" feeling (as opposed to insta-teleport level because they're swarming all over the place).
The only change I'd make, maybe, is to increase the frequency of the base 4. The other types are fine, imho.

[dhegler]

I was actually wondering if someone increased pack size on hounds and related... My first couple encounters playing 3.2 were at least a dozen of them. However, they don't seem to breath as often.

[buzzkill]

I've actually been seeing larger, normal sized, packs too. Still, at DL 57, just 140 hound kills, and I think I've killed all that I've met. I seem to have little use for the scrolls of enchant armour that I find, as nothing is chronically damaging my armour.

[scud]

I've been Angbanding for a couple of months following a twenty year hiatus.

On the basis of a single signicant(ish) game with a High Elf Ranger, 3.2 seems a little declawed after 3.1.2:

a) The comparative absence of hounds (can't speak beyond DL60)

b) The comparative durability of equipment: used to have to keep an eye on books and Recalls, but now it appears that they're much more rugged even without spell protection. 'Resistance' on top seems almost like immunity: I ran through three dozen lesser balrogs without loss and with barely a scratch.

c) The increase in the AC of 'ordinary' armour: there was [45,+15] type stuff lying around from DL20 onwards, and flavoured dragonmail from DL40+? Specifically, I tripped over Law Dragon Scale Mail of Permanence [36,+23] with light/sound/shards while stumbling around on DL56, which is a real game-changer. I don't know if permanence was only available in robe form in 3.1.2, but certainly I only found robes, and I liked the trade-off between permanence and AC.

d) 3d4 and 4d4 arrows seemed to be *everywhere* and there seemed to be noticeably more 'restore attribute' / 'potion of attribute/augmentation' lying about. I believe I had three augmentations before DL60, which seems excessive? Oh, and on early levels there are too many boots. It's like a bloody shoe shop at times!

e) The maze-like large celled vaults are much safer than the previous spiral celled vaults: it's very easy to back yourself into a corner and only be in the line of fire of 2-3 summoned nasties, whereas previously you were frequently stuck in a corridor with twenty of the buggers.

Overall 3.2 seems much more forgiving (too forgiving) of my bashing tactics than 3.1.2. I managed the following while waving Gurthang, wearing (initially) either Thalkettoth or Arvedui, and without much in the way of speed...


787942 2300' 36 Killed Akhorahil the Blind
788147 2300' 36 Killed Dwar, Dog Lord of Waw
789019 2300' 36 Found The Set of Gauntlets 'Paurhach' (LOST)
791148 2300' 36 Found The Quarterstaff 'Nar-i-vagil' (LOST)
799968 2300' 36 Killed Ar-Pharazon the Golden
800311 2300' 36 Found The Set of Leather Gloves 'Cambeleg'
801296 2300' 37 Reached level 37
802654 2300' 37 Killed The Phoenix
803157 2300' 37 Killed Eol, the Dark Elf
806571 2300' 37 Found The Set of Caestus of Fingolfin (LOST)
807617 2300' 37 Found The Broad Sword 'Glamdring' (LOST)
807700 2300' 37 Found The Full Plate Armour of Isildur
808629 2300' 37 Killed Harowen the Black Hand
809500 2300' 37 Killed Smaug the Golden
812791 2300' 37 Killed Thuringwethil, the Vampire Messenger
822072 2300' 37 Killed Vargo, Tyrant of Fire
826120 2300' 37 Killed Saruman of Many Colours

...and none of them caused me to actually *think* about what I was doing, which I think is a weakness in the current release of the game?

Which is why I got done to death by Azriel with a mana/nether double whammy on DL61.

:-(

In summary: I think the game needs to be marginally retweaked in the monsters' favour.

[Starhawk]

I just lost a character around DL65 and noticed that hounds seemed to be gradually becoming more prevalent the deeper I delved. I found the reduced presence of hounds to be quite refreshing, as in 3.1.2 I felt deluged in them, with multiple packs on most levels.

I didn't get complacent, but Ungoliant double-moved me and breathed dark twice -- where I had a resistance hole due to playing with randarts. D'oh!

[Derakon]

I've been Angbanding for a couple of months following a twenty year hiatus.

Welcome back, and thanks for posting your thoughts!

a) The comparative absence of hounds (can't speak beyond DL60)

IIRC hound frequency was roughly halved for the basic hounds. They really were all over the place previously. It may be that we need to step up the 1000' area with other monsters, but I for one would rather that hounds not be everywhere all the time like they used to be. Variety is a good thing.

b) The comparative durability of equipment: used to have to keep an eye on books and Recalls, but now it appears that they're much more rugged even without spell protection. 'Resistance' on top seems almost like immunity: I ran through three dozen lesser balrogs without loss and with barely a scratch.

To my knowledge, the only change here is that inventory damage is calculated based on the resisted damage instead of the unresisted damage. This means that having resistance to an element actually affords some protection to your inventory, which it didn't used to. At best this means that items are a third as likely to be damaged as they used to be. It sounds like you're talking about orders of magnitude though, which this wouldn't account for.

c) The increase in the AC of 'ordinary' armour: there was [45,+15] type stuff lying around from DL20 onwards, and flavoured dragonmail from DL40+? Specifically, I tripped over Law Dragon Scale Mail of Permanence [36,+23] with light/sound/shards while stumbling around on DL56, which is a real game-changer. I don't know if permanence was only available in robe form in 3.1.2, but certainly I only found robes, and I liked the trade-off between permanence and AC.

Ego DSM is almost certainly too frequent. DSM in general has been made more common; on the flipside, it was rarely useful in the old days. But the DSM egos are both powerful and relatively common.

You're right, by the way, that robes used to be the only ego that could get Permanence. I'd like to see the DSM Permanence ego replaced with a Stealth ego myself.

d) 3d4 and 4d4 arrows seemed to be *everywhere* and there seemed to be noticeably more 'restore attribute' / 'potion of attribute/augmentation' lying about. I believe I had three augmentations before DL60, which seems excessive? Oh, and on early levels there are too many boots. It's like a bloody shoe shop at times!

Consumables were too rare in 3.1.2 compared to previous versions; a side-effect of the attack on junk items. Maybe now they're too common, or we got used to doing without? Can't speak to the ammo though.

e) The maze-like large celled vaults are much safer than the previous spiral celled vaults: it's very easy to back yourself into a corner and only be in the line of fire of 2-3 summoned nasties, whereas previously you were frequently stuck in a corridor with twenty of the buggers.

There's more than one type of greater vault that consists of small cells holding powerful monsters. The old type with straight lines is still in the game.

Overall 3.2 seems much more forgiving (too forgiving) of my bashing tactics than 3.1.2...In summary: I think the game needs to be marginally retweaked in the monsters' favour.

You'll be glad to hear that one of the guiding goals for 3.3 is to make the game harder again.

[dhegler]

I thought that I found a wicker shield of permanence in 3.1.2, however I certainly found more robes.

The more I play, the more I don't see any difference in hounds. Maybe I just forget how annoying they were.

[Derakon]

You found a shield of Preservation, which sustains physical stats and gives hold life / resist disenchantment. Similar but not identical to Permanence.

[Thraalbee]

My feel about 3.2 (only at dLvl 50 now which is best results so far)

a) The comparative absence of hounds (can't speak beyond DL60)
-- I like the new distribution, just right in my eyes

b) The comparative durability of equipment...
-- I like it that double protection becomes more important - for items
-- I think balance is good - I try never to engage (Priest) but so far I've lost about 5 PB's and 20 other items up to dLvl 50

c) The increase in the AC of 'ordinary' armour...
-- Agree, powerful dsm and other stuff probably too common now
-- AC-wise it is probably only for the better, but prob. too much powers

d) 3d4 and 4d4 arrows ... 'restore attribute' / 'potion of ...
-- I don't get the feeling that this changed so much since 3.1
-- Quite good balance I think

*) Overall, many good changes. Very happy you guys keep improving the game. It's nearly the only game I play since I stopped playing Nethack and I really enjoy it

/Mathias

[buzzkill]

I've actually been seeing larger, normal sized, packs too. Still, at DL 57, just 140 hound kills, and I think I've killed all that I've met. I seem to have little use for the scrolls of enchant armour that I find, as nothing is chronically damaging my armour.

Really, *enchant armour* is all but useless now (and quite common), and I don't pay particular attention to keeping my equipment safe from damage. Who are the other big acid-based equipment destroyers?

If there's a middle ground between where hounds are and where hounds were, I'd go there. That's just me.

[Hariolor]

Really, *enchant armour* is all but useless now (and quite common), and I don't pay particular attention to keeping my equipment safe from damage. Who are the other big acid-based equipment destroyers?

If there's a middle ground between where hounds are and where hounds were, I'd go there. That's just me.

In the early to mid levels it's the acidic cytoplasms that make me crazy. Until I can hit hard enough to off them before they get to me, they will usually inspire me to teleport them or myself away on sight. Fast moving, multiple attacks, lots of acid = instant ruined kit.