Making the game harder, take two

[buzzkill]

Or, to modify Philip's idea, teleport other could haste and/or heal the monster, and the range could be randomized so it might land quite close to you.

Let's make haste temporary before we start handing it out as a side effect.

[Derakon]

If you want to make the game harder, undo the changes that made it easier since 3.0.6

That'd be a good idea if we determined that those were totally bad changes, but they aren't; they're good changes that had the unfortunate side-effect of making the game easier. We can compensate by making it harder in other ways.

[Magnate]

That'd be a good idea if we determined that those were totally bad changes, but they aren't; they're good changes that had the unfortunate side-effect of making the game easier. We can compensate by making it harder in other ways.

Agreed. In the meantime, 3.0.6 is still available for anyone who wants a challenge.

It was interesting to see Pete's summary though: every one of those was done to make some items more useful more often, i.e. to address the TMJ problem that plagued all versions since floor stacking. It looks as if we might finally have swapped TMJ for the "game is too easy" issue. Fortunately, quite a lot of thought and debate has gone into making it harder again, so it should all work out eventually.

[Derakon]

I will certainly agree that Vanilla no longer has a "too much junk" issue.

[Mondkalb]

For newbies Angband is still a hard game which will cost them hours and hours of gameplay before they get even to the more interesting items.

Even many experienced players usually don't win it easily.

If we want to attract new players, the game should not be too hard to win. The frustration about getting killed an have to start over again and again acts as a deterrent for many interesting people.
I have been trying to interest new players in Angband for several years but it is not easy; even if you get some people to step over the first threshold - user interface - the frequent early deaths tend to discourage most people quite soon.

[nppangband]

For newbies Angband is still a hard game which will cost them hours and hours of gameplay before they get even to the more interesting items.

Even many experienced players usually don't win it easily.

If we want to attract new players, the game should not be too hard to win. The frustration about getting killed an have to start over again and again acts as a deterrent for many interesting people.
I have been trying to interest new players in Angband for several years but it is not easy; even if you get some people to step over the first threshold - user interface - the frequent early deaths tend to discourage most people quite soon.

The flip side of that, however is *keeping* people interested in the game once they start. If the game is too easy, people will win a couple times, move on to something else, and never look back. A better UI will get more people playing. But in order for people to keep playing Angband, it has to have a high replay value.

[Mondkalb]

There are already options to make the game harder, what if there were more?

Like choosing various restrictions or decreasing the likelyhood of certain objects to be gernerated or making enemies more dangerous?

[Derakon]

Mondkalb, you seem to be assuming that the fun of a game is in winning it. And yet we've had members of our community who have played the game for years without ever winning it. This is considered entirely reasonable. They still have fun playing the parts of the game that they can reach and trying with each character to make it a bit further than the last one did. This gives Angband way more long-term viability as a game than most games that are winnable to newbies.

Angband should be hard. However, it should also have a smooth learning curve. So long as we can improve the latter without harming the former, we're on the right track.

[d_m]

Angband should be hard. However, it should also have a smooth learning curve. So long as we can improve the latter without harming the former, we're on the right track.

Agreed--I don't consider smoothing out the early game (or making the early game easier) to be a problem. It's really the mid-to-late game that should not be getting easier, and in fact should probably be harder (or at least, have less obvious strategies).

In a similar vein, I would trade "press key not to die" type tedium (which is difficult only in you might forget sometimes) for actual tactical difficulty any day. In fact, I'd rather just remove "press key not to die" type actions and focus on what makes the game fun/interesting/difficult. Others may disagree.

The developers are currently trying to move the game back toward being harder--hopefully it is noticeable in the nightlies.

[Taha]

I would say the game has gotten significantly more challenging in the nightlies. And I have made it somewhat more challenging for myself by turning off connected stairs.

Branding rings no longer brand - back to being junk, by the time they show up there are better rings and rods available. I think their only purpose is to make you hope that new unid'ed ring type might be speed.

Don't know about standard artifacts, but non weapon random artifacts are very very much rarer up through level 60. I keep dying in that range, so I can't speak to deeper.

Ego armor is much less common than before at shallow depths. I think armor has been made less common? Not sure, but it works out that I haven't seen anything "of Resistance" or "of Elvenkind" in my last three decently deep games, and no artifact armor of any sort prior to level 50.

Since I haven't seen any really deep artifacts for a while, I can't speak to off weapon blows and shots. As far as them being useable, the artifact weapons I have found recently did not replace my defender weapon, that was my only source of SI, free action or rbase at level 55 in my last game. One of them was useful as a swap against nexus breathers.

The new level types - labyrinths, and caverns - both make the game harder in an interesting way. The open line of sight paths / short distances to wake up monsters are dangerous.

Teleport other is much more dangerous and less useful as a bolt than a beam. Vaults are correspondingly more dangerous.

Also, it seems the frequency of out of depth object / monster generation has increased significantly outside of vaults. This has led to some really nice finds (DSM pre level 10), and some very annoying powerful monster deaths. My last character (a no selling priest, of course) got Kelek's off of a novice rogue at dlvl 4. Don't know if it was on the floor and he picked it up or created when he died.

The changes to selling (vastly decreased prices) have made playing no selling a much more viable option; there is enough for consumables, but it takes a good while to be able to buy stat potions if available.

And turning off connected stairs has been ... different. After all the vehement discussion around here, I tried it out. I never thought I abused them before, but landing in a room with grishnak, all his escorts, two tengus and a shrieker patch ended a very promising character around level 10 - previously I would have bailed. In retrospect, I should have read recall and hoped I could stay alive that long - the patch woke everyone up just as I stepped out of the room, and tengus kept me from leaving. It was right before what would have been my first recall to buy a staff of teleportation and prayer books 2 & 3, so thought I had no true escapes. Turns out an unid'ed scroll of deep descent was in my bag, but didn't get around to trying it.

I like the changes. I think winning is still quite possible, both of my last two major deaths have been mistakes on my part, but in the pre 3.2 nightlies I was almost assuming a win once my character hit clvl 20-25.

One change I don't like as much - who though renaming all the novices was a good idea? Now I have to think about what a "Scout" or an "Apprentice" might be. Flavor is all well and good, but clarity in naming is nice too.
________
Mature live

[d_m]

One change I don't like as much - who though renaming all the novices was a good idea? Now I have to think about what a "Scout" or an "Apprentice" might be. Flavor is all well and good, but clarity in naming is nice too.

I think Takkaria doesn't love the new names either. I happen to like them a lot. See if they grow on you. There hasn't been an outcry to unify Swordsman, Mage, etc. into "Experienced $CLASS" monsters yet, so (hopefully) it's just something you're not used to yet.

If there is a huge outcry about them then that change could easily be reverted. But I kind of like it.

[nppangband]

Angband should be hard. However, it should also have a smooth learning curve. So long as we can improve the latter without harming the former, we're on the right track.

+1. That's what I was aiming at above when I said "improve the UI", but that's a much better way of putting it.

[Philip]

huh
Well, I like the new names, because I think it's just more fun and flavourful, but I see your point. They were removed once already, then reintroduced. I think it's more imaginative, although clarity is a good point. Of course only warrior, ranger, priest and paladin(?haven't seen) can be tough, and what the heck is a illusionist? Who cares, he can't do damage and there is no one around.

[Derakon]

Illusionists can be quite nasty -- they can haste themselves and confuse/slow/paralyze you. Sure they only have one 2d2 melee hit, but if there's anything else in the area you'll want to take them out quickly. Much like shrieker mushroom patches in that way.