Idea for making Morgoth more dangerous

[Adley]

If you die, you die, c'est la vie.

That made me smile.

[fizzix]

Maybe the stores should stock some items once you beat Sauron?

In the current state you can win with 50 ?phase and 50 !CCW. Destruction and Teleport other help, and frankly you should have kept several rods of TO and staves by now that you can recharge when needed. However, even these aren't necessary. Get your phase and CCW and attack. If you die, you die, c'est la vie.

[bio_hazard]

Maybe the stores should stock some items once you beat Sauron?

[TJS]

Do you want the game to be winnable?

If so, then there is only a fixed amount of danger allowable in the game. Perhaps the game is too easy. Then IMO you should change the game to be harder on the way, rather than making it easy to reach M and then make M hard. Once the overall game is in balance, if you make M harder you need to make some other unique easier.

One of the reasons that diving for turncount is interesting is that it limits preparation. If you think M is too easy in your current games, you can choose to go fast enough so that he is not.

Yep I'd agree with this. I've got down to level 99 several times, but I can never be bothered to prepare for the final fights so I tend to leave the game and start a new one.

I don't mind the idea of a dangerous fight, I just don't want to have to wander about for ages looking for consumables.

[PowerDiver]

Do you want the game to be winnable?

If so, then there is only a fixed amount of danger allowable in the game. Perhaps the game is too easy. Then IMO you should change the game to be harder on the way, rather than making it easy to reach M and then make M hard. Once the overall game is in balance, if you make M harder you need to make some other unique easier.

One of the reasons that diving for turncount is interesting is that it limits preparation. If you think M is too easy in your current games, you can choose to go fast enough so that he is not.

[fyonn]

or DL100 is a giant level with no walls, just one biiiiig room?

[tigpup]

"-Morgoth could choose his path to approach the player to avoid LOS where possible"

or, DL100 is a special level with a new vault containing permanent walls; designed in such a way to make LOS harder.

[Lord Tom]

The reason Morgoth is not so dangerous is because you can prep to face him.

If you really want to make Morgoth dangerous, give him a ranged instakill attack he uses 0.1% of the time. Anything else just means more scumming for !Life and !*Heal before you fight him.

This is probably true with perfect play. Perhaps then the problem is that perfect play is too easy.

Some ideas:
-Morgoth could have the ability to block player spells - this is similar to disallowing 0% failure rates though could be implemented so he only tries to block certain spells, eg banishment
-Morgoth could start with escorts, and/or have his AI avoid outdistancing them
-I agree that M needs to be less susceptible to LOS disruption, especially with create doors
-Morgoth could choose his path to approach the player to avoid LOS where possible

[Timo Pietilä]

The reason Morgoth is not so dangerous is because you can prep to face him.

I agree with this. I don't see any reason making him more dangerous. You can just do more preparing until you are ready. Making him more dangerous just means that you prepare longer.

No matter what you do that is valid argument unless you do:

a) time limit before he goes after you (wouldn't play that angband)
b) give him 100% guaranteed instantly deadly attack no matter what you do.

Preparing is not only consumables, it is also gear suitable for killing Morgoth. If you want to make him more dangerous remove Haradrim. That pretty much makes him harder for all classes.

[Chud]

I haven't ever gotten to Morgoth, so I'm probably not really qualified to comment too much... but, I can imagine that if you do something like this you might need to make summoned thingys wait one turn after being sommoned before they can act. Otherwise insta-death seems pretty likely.

Morgoth clears everything within 3 squares in every direction! -more-

Morgoth summons 14 nasty uniques which now surround you and have LoS! -more-

The first one beats on you! -more-

(repest 13 times, which you are probably unlikely to survive... )

[fizzix]

(there are a couple ways you could handle *Destruction* under this scheme--the most obvious would be that either the effect fails or that Morgoth would be unaffected).

A while ago I suggested a change to how destruction was handled. Along with removing artifacts also, i suggested monsters be allowed a saving throw. Depending on the result of the saving throw they would either be:

Removed from the level
Teleported away
Moved to the edge of the destruction zone.

However, I have never bailed on a fight with Morgoth. Several times I've delayed because I found a weapon upgrade right after prepping, or did something like forget my banish scrolls. But I never gave up halfway through. I'd rather die than scum again for healing...

[Lord Fell]

I'm a big fan of limiting escape. Angband means "Iron Prison," so by all means let's limit escape.

"Morgoth binds you with shackles of grim iron!" any Teleport Level or Recall effect should immediately be countered and dispelled, any teleport "on level" effect should have a 50% failure rate.
-I'd like to see this be an immediate script that goes into effect whenever Morgoth becomes aware of a player.

I don't know about the permanent destruction or damaging of "undamagable" items, I'm not really a fan.

Along the idea of imposing a chance of failure, how about something like:
*Morgoth warps Fate (the player gains a cumulative 5% spell and item failure chance, which lasts until Morgoth is dead).
*Morgoth warps Time (the player suffers a -2 Speed, which is also cumulative until Morgoth is dead).

...instead of allowing Morgoth to summon the remaining Uniques... is there a way to Force them to spawn on DL100?

[d_m]

If you really want to make Morgoth dangerous, give him a ranged instakill attack he uses 0.1% of the time. Anything else just means more scumming for !Life and !*Heal before you fight him.

I don't think your argument really works. As long as you're willing to scum for Life and *Heal* then nothing (including Morgoth) is dangerous because you can always use escapes and scumming until you have "enough" healing/escapes/equipment to face enemy X. But in fact, lots of things do end up being dangerous because either people are lazy, or don't pay attention, or don't know their danger, or are trying to get a low turncount, or are playing ironman, etc, etc.

Even for those players who are careful and obsessively prepare for the final battle I can think of lots of things that would make Morgoth more dangerous other than an instakill spell:

1. A spell Morgoth can cast that permanently prevents the player from leaving dungeon until the player or Morgoth is dead (there are a couple ways you could handle *Destruction* under this scheme--the most obvious would be that either the effect fails or that Morgoth would be unaffected). This would mean that you couldn't bail on the fight and just scum for more potions... once you'd committed you had to see it through. Even if the chances of it being cast were low, it would pose a serious risk.

2. Once Morgoth sees the player, letting Morgoth follow the player to all future levels (e.g. town, dungeon level 1, etc). This way, the player can still teleport around and try to escape, but can't actually use level changing resets. Again, *Destruction* might need to be handled in a special way (although having to cast *Destruction* once per level would be kind of hilarious, and *Destruction* also doesn't work in town).

3. Giving Morgoth the ability to destroy items and/or equipment with attacks (regardless of resistance/immunity) possibly destroying an entire stack (or just far more than a normal attack). Getting all your teleport level scrolls destroyed could be pretty bad for a Warrior, obviously. Same for magic books. This would remove many of the assurances players normally have of escapes. Again, the chances of this happening might be small, but it would still be something to plan around (and the idea that there's a infinitesimal chance that one hit from Morgoth destroys all of a player's inventory/equipment is both terrifying and kind of cool in a sick way). Destroying equipment is something nothing else in the game can do currently (except for ?Curse Weapon/Armor).

4. Making teleport spells (or maybe all spells) less reliable when being cast in Morgoth's dread presence. Maybe this just means capping success rates for spells at 95%. Maybe this goes for scrolls/staves/wands/rods/potions also.

I think your point is that with so much preparation, anything that doesn't kill the player in one turn is useless with 100% reliable single-turn escapes/healing. I would propose that rather than giving instakill attacks, a better solution is to make things less reliable. I think we can agree that anything other than this just changes the kinds of preparation players have to make (rather than adding new serious risks to the fight).

Anyway, I'm not saying I plan to implement these drastic changes (although I'm not saying I won't either) just that I think they are other valid approaches to making Morgoth harder/more dangerous.

[PowerDiver]

The reason Morgoth is not so dangerous is because you can prep to face him.

If you really want to make Morgoth dangerous, give him a ranged instakill attack he uses 0.1% of the time. Anything else just means more scumming for !Life and !*Heal before you fight him.

[nppangband]

Probably requires 4GAI, which for example NPP has. Also IIRC NPP has that disintegration attack (or manastorm acts like it).

4GAI is so big change in monster behavior that it requires a lot of work, so probably not going to happen anytime soon with all the other stuff going on right now.

There isn't quite a disintegration attack. But with our implementation of the UNAngband terrain, floors and walls are affected by spells. For example, if you are in a puddle of water, and an ancient white dragon breathes frost, the floor is likely to freeze. Or an ice wall can be melted by a powerful fireball attack.

The NPP 4gai does allow for, if the player is slightly out of sight of the monster, for monster ball spells to be cast on the square next to the player, so the player gets splash damage. But this is mostly to foil the pillar dance tactic.