Ridiculous death due, in my opinion, to flawed design.

[Therem Harth]

Good point, Derakon... Though it would be kind of sad if Vogrim were an adult.

[Vogrim]

Go ahead and make the remark, christcakes. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard and manhandled it.

[Derakon]

Finally, since Vogrim's behavior strikes me as pretty immature (IMO, judging from the fact that I was like that when I was 15)... I'm going to make a suggestion to the administrators here. Maybe it would be a good idea to have an age limit on joining this board? The age of majority where it's hosted perhaps?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and guess that Vogrim's not as young as you think he is.

And yes, he's being rude. He was also provoked by Timo and a few others. I won't say he's blameless, but he's not the only person to blame here. This entire conversation is getting out of hand, for no good reason.

Remember, guys, "someone is wrong on the Internet" is not a good reason to get into a flamewar.

[Therem Harth]

I was going to make a remark about Sir Isaac Newton re the "good Chrstian" thing, but I'm starting to think that a Cluebat of Slay Troll may be more effective.

[Therem Harth]

I took a look at the backlog of this thread... Vogrim, while I share some of your opinions on permadeath in roguelikes, I do feel you're being remarkably rude. I have a few things to say.

1. It's a game. It's supposed to be fun. Relax. Some players flesh out their characters a fair amount, some don't, but it's not worth getting worked up over. Unlike IRL, in Angband you can restart if you die. Some variants in fact have an option to restart with the same character (i.e. the same stats and description).

2. There is a cheat death option, located in a fairly obvious place in the options screen. It's not as nice as the reload options that most RPGs give you, but it works. It nullifies your score, but IMO that matters not at all if you're playing for fun. It's disabled by default because of the game's internal workings - otherwise people who wanted a score would have to start the game from the command line, or edit the INI file, or whatnot.

3. 20 hours is quite a lot of time to get to level 39. And depending on the amount of time those hours were spread out over, it might be rather a lot to spend on a game. Again: it's supposed to be a fun time-waster. If it's not fun, then stop playing it. If you find yourself getting annoyed with it after a while, then close it and read a book or something.

Finally, since Vogrim's behavior strikes me as pretty immature (IMO, judging from the fact that I was like that when I was 15)... I'm going to make a suggestion to the administrators here. Maybe it would be a good idea to have an age limit on joining this board? The age of majority where it's hosted perhaps?

[Vogrim]

Your argument style would make you a good christian. I find it amusing how you keep talking about this game as if it's difficult, yet continuously fail to explain HOW it's difficult. I specifically explained why adding insta-kill monsters doesn't make the game difficult, yet you glossed over the argument and responded with "yes huh!" Sounds like you're desperately trying to rationalize the amount of time you've invested in the game. Fanboyism sure is funny.

I read an interesting article about your kind earlier. Take a gander, it might offer some insight: http://youarenotsosmart.com/2010/05/...brand-loyalty/

[Timo Pietilä]

Wow. Timo, are you mentally impaired? DIFFICULTY DOESN'T ENTER INTO THE EQUATION. Making certain monsters one-shot the player if they're not wearing a certain resistance item doesn't make the game DIFFICULT, it makes it STUPID. Do you know why, simp?

I'd say your attitude is beyond sub-standard. I'll ask Pav to ban you. We don't need arrogant newbies here to cry how unfair this game it.

Because it does nothing but punish new players. YOU KNOW that the hydra will kill you in one shot, so for you, it's as simple as not fighting it if you don't have the proper resistance, or putting on the proper resistance. Doing that does not require skill, NOR talent, NOR is it difficult.

As a new player, NO AMOUNT OF CAUTIOUSNESS can negate dying in one shot.

Yes it can. That's one lesson you haven't learned yet.

I can't wrap my head around why you think this is a GOOD thing. Making it so DYING or CHEATING is the only way a player can learn to avoid getting killed is simply asinine in a game like this.

There are other ways, but you obviously don't know them. Because of your attitude I won't give you any more advices, particularly that one.

Why not lower the base damage on these obscene attacks and lower the amount of damage resisted along with it so the player doesn't insta-die due to ignorance, yet still takes the same amount of damage when resisting? Why not, at the very LEAST, have an NPC run up to you at some point before the instant death phase of the game and warn the player what can happen? Why not warn the player of the specific creatures that can obliterate him in one shot?

Where's the fun in that? You want an easy game. Go play solitaire. No, wait, you might get stuck in that. Maybe something easier. Something where you can't lose...I know! Chess against yourself. When one side wins you can always say you were that person.

Do you honestly think the simple fact of knowing how much damage certain monsters will do to you makes you a skilled player?

No, but avoiding death when you don't know makes you skilled player. You lack that skill.

Go away and go play something easier if you think this is wrong.

[PowerDiver]

Do you honestly think the simple fact of knowing how much damage certain monsters will do to you makes you a skilled player?

There is a longstanding tradition that you should lose a bunch of characters while you learn the rules of the game. I never understood the appeal. What they call monster memory I call part of a game manual.

Just set the cheat_know option.
Alternatively, download the savefile from http://angband.oook.cz/competition.php?showcompo=83 which I submitted so it is presumably 99% complete info, if for some reason it bothers you to set an option with "cheat" in the name.

[Derakon]

Okay, guys, this conversation is getting a bit out of hand. Let's not be insulting. If someone appears to be ignoring your argument, it's not because they're stupid; it's because they're choosing to ignore it. So leave the insults out of the equation, huh? This applies to both sides.

There's plenty of room to disagree without being impolite.

[Bostock]

The comments promoting faster diving (faster movement down into the dungeon) in real time -- and game turns -- may sound a bit mad; after all, if you are allowed to spend indefinite time perfecting your kit at any dungeon level and thus difficulty level, why not do it?

The trouble is that by doing that, you also hamper the quality of what you can find per move and per hour. Ultimately, proceeding faster makes it easier die, yes, but if you live, it makes it easier to *continue* proceeding faster... and ultimately, it's winninger to spend 80 hours dying twice and winning once than not quite even winning once!

[Vogrim]

Wow. Timo, are you mentally impaired? DIFFICULTY DOESN'T ENTER INTO THE EQUATION. Making certain monsters one-shot the player if they're not wearing a certain resistance item doesn't make the game DIFFICULT, it makes it STUPID. Do you know why, simp? Because it does nothing but punish new players. YOU KNOW that the hydra will kill you in one shot, so for you, it's as simple as not fighting it if you don't have the proper resistance, or putting on the proper resistance. Doing that does not require skill, NOR talent, NOR is it difficult.

As a new player, NO AMOUNT OF CAUTIOUSNESS can negate dying in one shot. I can't wrap my head around why you think this is a GOOD thing. Making it so DYING or CHEATING is the only way a player can learn to avoid getting killed is simply asinine in a game like this.

Why not lower the base damage on these obscene attacks and lower the amount of damage resisted along with it so the player doesn't insta-die due to ignorance, yet still takes the same amount of damage when resisting? Why not, at the very LEAST, have an NPC run up to you at some point before the instant death phase of the game and warn the player what can happen? Why not warn the player of the specific creatures that can obliterate him in one shot?

Do you honestly think the simple fact of knowing how much damage certain monsters will do to you makes you a skilled player?

[camlost]

Some variants are more forgiving about mistakes. Others less. Poison resist is important, now you know. As you know more, the early game speeds up. The "mistake" you made was either lack of knowledge or approach. Regulars know that LH breathes poison, you didn't. A common suggestion is that you don't kill uniques the first time you see them. Angband is a harsh game, if you don't like it, there are lots of other games. Many of us find the game compelling in its depth, which yes, includes instadeath.

Timo considers this a game of skill. He's also really good at the game. Insulting him won't win you any friends.

[Timo Pietilä]

The funny part is that my character is heavily decked out in great gear. I think poison resistance is the only thing he's lacking.

You didn't have right gear then. Too low HP, lack of poison resist. That doesn't sound "great gear" to me. You probably are trying to max wrong things. Try faster games to learn what things are really important, and what are not.

Timo, I realize you like this game, but you need to wake up to your fanboyism; your stance on this matter is painfully devoid of thought. To lose a 2.2 million experience character for no reason other than ignorance of baffling game mechanics is ridiculous. It's not like I died because I made a series of mistakes (you know, the skill you were mentioning earlier?).

You made single mistake. That's all it takes to get killed in Angband. This death was completely avoidable. Actually you did make serie of mistakes:

1) you assumed it was safe to fight something you don't know
2) you didn't have resist to cover your basic resistances

As I said earlier, there are much worse things in the dungeon. You died now, you should learn from it.

Also: you had very low HP for your char. Usually clvl 39 Dunadan Paladins have over 800 points of HP (not always though) which makes me think that you probably don't know what to wear. That, and also 20 hours of playing to get char only at clvl 39 means you are going slow. Try faster games. That's a good way of learning this game.

There are people telling to use cheat death, but you learn more by getting killed. Just play fast, and do not intentionally try to get killed. You learn much from what you need and what not if you just try.

I died because I had absolutely no reason to think that something would simply stroll up and obliterate me in a single shot.

Now you know that it can happen. Learn, otherwise it will happen again and again and again. It's actually quite surprising it was Lernaean hydra that did this to you and not Drolem or AMHD or some other non-unique deep thing. Playing that way would have got you killed sooner or later. Too bad it wasn't sooner, you could have learned your lesson a bit earlier.

This is not flaw in game design. This is how it has always been, this is how it is meant to be. Game is actually too easy currently, not too tough. If you don't like it, don't play this game. Go play something else.

The only way I could have avoided this was to research the game ahead of time, and if you think that's a sign of a well-built game, I suggest you don't attempt to operate heavy machinery.

This is a well-build game. This is also old game. Really old. If you don't like the way this game does things, don't play it. You can always try other roguelikes like Nethack. Or Moria, that doesn't even have poison resist. After trying those come back to tell how "unfair" game can be.

You mentioned probing. Use it. You probably had seen Ancient Multi-hued Dragons before. You should have known that you can be killed without poison resist. Learn.

[Whelk]

Vogrim, I hope any posts that come across as elitist or the like don't put you off to the game. I share some similar opinions, like the silliness of being able to be killed in one shot, despite how strong the "you should be prepared for anything and everything at all times" attitude of the game is. I guess I'm just not a hardcore gamer.

I played Angband for years with the "save character from death" cheat and had a lot of fun, though I still never got a win. I eventually found it ending up being too easy and would burn out before I ever got to Morgoth, at which point I'd start a new character. Eventually I turned off the cheat and played with permadeath. At that point I had plenty of experience and knowledge with the game and was more prepared to face the dungeon with the threat of permadeath, and it became a lot more fun - even when my level 48 kobold rogue with an awesome set of gear died because I got overconfident in a demon pit. I was bummed, sure, but that's the way of the game and I had chosen to play it that way. As someone previously mentioned, once your new character finds his first piece of good gear, the mourning for the previous character tends to fade.

This might be a path you'd enjoy taking (playing with avoid death cheat for a while, then switching to permadeath). Even if it isn't, I hope you discover a happy medium and continue to enjoy the game. It's a great time-waster.

[Fendell Orcbane]

To the original poster

I think that you need to be careful with how you address people over here. I think that you are pretty rude and are very lucky that people are willing to deal with you at all. I doubt that you would be this rude in real life, so why act rude in a forum?