So what else should we revert?

[Magnate]

I think that'd lead to very stale inventory decisions.

The randart code already favors these attributes on specific items, although I think the favoritism could be heavier. For example I think that a game with no randart helms + ESP should be a very large outlier, maybe like a 1% chance. Similarly with no boots with +5 speed or greater. I've seen the lack of ESP helms in 2 games so far, and getting boots with high speed almost never happens.

This last was a bug, which I fixed in r2014. It had been bothering me for *ages* that so few randart sets had boots with more than +4 speed. Now every set should have at least one or two with +8 or better, and often three or four. Not that you'll find them, mind.

Lack of ESP on helms is not a problem, as far as I know. Your two games *should* be outliers - but happy to hear if others are also experiencing this. (You are checking the spoilers, aren't you? We're talking about items in the set, not items that you find in a game.)

[Magnate]

If the long term solution is that aggravation will change so it doesn't matter so much, why isn't the short term solution to remove it and then later add it back? Why boost it to be powerful even with aggravation, knowing that aggravation will be weakened later?

Well, at the time I knew the curses revamp was quite a way away, and I thought it would be cheesy simply to remove all the aggravation from standarts. I did remove one instance (Mediator, I think), but in all other cases I did something else instead, for variety's sake. I thought it would be better to do that, even if it meant changing things again when aggravation got fixed, than simply to take aggravation out. YM obviously does V.

[fizzix]

This last was a bug, which I fixed in r2014. It had been bothering me for *ages* that so few randart sets had boots with more than +4 speed. Now every set should have at least one or two with +8 or better, and often three or four. Not that you'll find them, mind.

Lack of ESP on helms is not a problem, as far as I know. Your two games *should* be outliers - but happy to hear if others are also experiencing this. (You are checking the spoilers, aren't you? We're talking about items in the set, not items that you find in a game.)

yup, I'm reading the spoilers. not sure I still have the spoiler files for them though, I'll look when I get a chance (although I probably won't have access to my laptop until tomorrow...)

There's one other minor thing, and I can't tell if this is actual or just a weird experience. I tend to find artifacts about half as often with randarts as I do with standarts... When I most recently played with standarts I was amazed with how many artifacts I was finding. But this could've just been an anomaly. I wish I could generate some randart logs right now...

[Magnate]

There's one other minor thing, and I can't tell if this is actual or just a weird experience. I tend to find artifacts about half as often with randarts as I do with standarts... When I most recently played with standarts I was amazed with how many artifacts I was finding. But this could've just been an anomaly. I wish I could generate some randart logs right now...

Well this is GREAT news! I've worried for years that it's the other way round - that randart games are too easy because they drop like flies. Something is obviously going ok then, despite the fact that the change to alloc_prob made it impossible to have rarities higher than 100 (in the old days Zarcuthra had rarity 180!). I did lower the min levels and rarities of some of the weaker standart weapons (basically just the 'thancs, Elvagil and Forasgil), and there was a bit of an outcry at the time that people would be finding 'thancs every game, but that seems not to have become an issue.

One change I made in 3.1.2 was to make randart rarities and depths dependent on their power, rather than carried across from standarts. This was a bit of a wrench, because one of the fundamental tenets of randarts is that they should match standarts overall, but it just wasn't working properly. I think the new power-based depths and rarities are actually working ok, but always happy to hear if other people are having the same problem.

[Jungle_Boy]

I think I've noticed the same thing as Fizzix, I normally find more of the standarts then randarts, although lately none of my characters have been staying alive long enough to find much of anything.

[Derakon]

It's been awhile since I played a standart game, so I don't have a good feel for what its general artifact rarity is like. However, I've definitely felt (as I've noted several times) that useful randarts don't start showing up at all reliably until the endgame. There'll be, oh, 2-4 randarts (not counting the phial) that I get in the 1000'-3000' range, but the rest show up when I'm in the depths.

Mind, I get a decent number of useless weapon randarts, but I don't really pay any attention to them.

[nppangband]

I was struck by the 2000-4900 thread by the proposition from Jeff (nppangband) that quite a few recent changes to V should be acknowledged as not having worked. Rather than reply to Jeff, I thought I'd start a new thread.

Takk frequently tells me to be bold, so I have in r2016 changed the monster drop algorithm to the one suggested by d_m:

MAX((p_ptr->depth + r_ptr->level) / 2, r_ptr->level)

Jeff (and everyone else) - I am curious to know which other changes you think should be reverted or revisited in V.

OK, going way back to the original intent of the thread, here is what I (in my humble and not necessarily correct opinion) think should be reverted:

1) The object drop depth, which I think I read has already been done. I don't mind eliminating the penalty for killing an OOD monster, but there should be no object boost for killing an orc at DL 98. Personally I don't think there should even be orcs at DL 98, but that is a discussion for aother thread.

2) turn paralysis back to the way it was.

3) Now that poison resist is much more common, un-do some of the smoothing out at the 2000' that was done in the JLE patch. Move AMHDs and dracolisks back to their original depths. And make them more common again. Also, make Drolems more alert and active. I am confident the reason they take so long to notice the player is that they were so deadly. The improvements in detection and reduction in offscreen dangers means the are not nearly as dangerous as they once were. (This follows Timo's wording in the previous thread, every time you make something easier, make something else a little harder)

4) The availability of speed has been a little bit overdone. I don't think it should go back to pre-JLE days, but at least make the speed items more rare. If speed rings are to become available at lower depths, at least break them up into rings of speed (available at 2000, maybe 1-3 speed max) and rings of *speed* (the current rings of speed).

5) Make full out resistance and elvenkind armor and shields a little rarer and deeper. It should be a challenge of equipment management up to stat-gain for the player to cover free action, see invisible, and 4 basic resists.

6) Make items with multiple high-resists less common, rarer and deeper. The challenge of equipment management post stat gain should be to cover speed and as many high resists as possible.

7) Telepathy should be harder to get, not a standard part of all equiment after 1500'.


Those are my suggestions for un-doing some of the things that I think unbalance the game.

But that leaves a second question, and an important one. Maybe it deserves it's own thread: What about the beginning players? I have several suggestions for that.

1) Newer players should be encouraged to play games like quickband and moria (hold that thought for a minute) to get used to the game". Angband is long and complicated game. It is just too much to swallow all at once for a complete outsider.

2) There should be lots of on-screen, automatic help for newcomers. The help files have lots of useful information, but it takes too long to navigate them, and my idea is a window that, throught the game, automatically displays portions of the help menu in a side window. For example, during player birth, as the player scrolls through race and class, a separate window authmatically displays the paragraph from the help files for those races/classes. As the player scrolls through options, the paragraph fro the help menus describing each option should pop up. While they are in the town, describe each store....while they are in the dungeon, have the list of commands available in a sidebar...similar to what you get when you hit return right now, but the appropriate sub menu comes up depending on the player's situation. When the player gets hit by something in combat, the help window could give a brief summary of the attack they are facing. etc....

3) I don't think making the game wholesale easier helps. It has the negative effect of reducing replay value. Instead the best way to help beginning palyers is by ui improvements. Angband has made great strides in this area, but IMHO this is the best way to help beginners develop a comfort level with the game.

Back to Quickband and Moria - At one time Antoine asked me if he could keep his quickband code in NPP so he didn't have to update it. This was when NPP was at the height of it's popularity, and although I liked the idea I was overwhelmed with feature requests and development and couldnt take that on as well. I now hope to, once I get NPP caught up with Angband, make it a game that can have different modules. Nothing like the TOME T-engine, but just have some code supporting reading different edit files depending on which game the player wants to play. And have support for some functions to be different to support games like Quickband, so the players can get a taste of victory on a smaller scale without the many hours it takes to master the full 100 level Angband game.

I don't think Moria would be all that much work to add either, assuming there is an interest.

But I think that is the best way to support newer players, rather than making the game easier.

The other part of Angband that, personally, I have no idea where it is going is with the object list. I know it can't or won't be undone, but since Angband is an inventory management game, it makes such a difference in game balance. From reading feedback the forum it seems like objects and object generation are in the middle of a complete re-write. I haven't looked at it enough to know what is going on or to have an educated opinion of the quality of the changes. But I think whatever is going on there needs to be finished before Angband can be re-balanced. Changing that affects every part of the game.

[Antoine]

Back to Quickband and Moria - At one time Antoine asked me if he could keep his quickband code in NPP so he didn't have to update it. This was when NPP was at the height of it's popularity, and although I liked the idea I was overwhelmed with feature requests and development and couldnt take that on as well. I now hope to, once I get NPP caught up with Angband, make it a game that can have different modules. Nothing like the TOME T-engine, but just have some code supporting reading different edit files depending on which game the player wants to play. And have support for some functions to be different to support games like Quickband, so the players can get a taste of victory on a smaller scale without the many hours it takes to master the full 100 level Angband game.

That would be very awesome. I think it would also be great if there was a "quick mode" in V - offering a smaller game experience (less effort, less reward). It would be analogous to "ironman mode" (which is the converse, harder than normal play but very satisfying if you can pull it off").

I agree with all your reversion comments as well.

A.

[fizzix]

3) Now that poison resist is much more common, un-do some of the smoothing out at the 2000' that was done in the JLE patch. Move AMHDs and dracolisks back to their original depths. And make them more common again. Also, make Drolems more alert and active. I am confident the reason they take so long to notice the player is that they were so deadly. The improvements in detection and reduction in offscreen dangers means the are not nearly as dangerous as they once were. (This follows Timo's wording in the previous thread, every time you make something easier, make something else a little harder)

I'm not sure I agree with this. Drolems are still one of the monsters I'm most likely to die to. I think the problem is the characters that are most likely to awaken drolems (priests, warriors, paladins) are also the characters that cannot detect them by the time they show up. They are incredibly deadly, and the no. 1 cause of death for my priest characters. I don't think they need to be made harder.

I don't think I would notice if you made poison resistance less common though. I often don't get it until dlevel 70 or so...

4) The availability of speed has been a little bit overdone. I don't think it should go back to pre-JLE days, but at least make the speed items more rare. If speed rings are to become available at lower depths, at least break them up into rings of speed (available at 2000, maybe 1-3 speed max) and rings of *speed* (the current rings of speed).

Once the item fix goes into place (it already is) speed rings will be a *lot* less common. Wyrms will no longer drop them, and that's a huge deal. Again, I generally don't get speed until many monsters are already faster than me. My first source of speed is usually _speed unless I'm a mage, in which case it's the spell.

5) Make full out resistance and elvenkind armor and shields a little rarer and deeper. It should be a challenge of equipment management up to stat-gain for the player to cover free action, see invisible, and 4 basic resists.

Is this not the case? It certainly feels challenging to me! We could make resistance ego a bit deeper, I'm fine with that. Although I don't think we should move it deeper than AMHD depth, whatever that gets put at. Elvenkind already feels pretty rare.

6) Make items with multiple high-resists less common, rarer and deeper. The challenge of equipment management post stat gain should be to cover speed and as many high resists as possible.

I think the bigger problem is that many of the high resists are so damn useless. Max possible damage is what's important, and the high resist often only reduce this by 1/6. So, you need less healing, but there's no point. There are also so few monsters that use these attacks, they are just not worth getting at all.

The only high resists worth getting are rconf, rblind and rsound. If rsound no longer blocks stunning as in Timo's suggestions, it becomes useless as well. Is it a challenge to cover as many resists as possible? yes. Would you drop *any* high resist to favor speed or stat boosts. Yes.

7) Telepathy should be harder to get, not a standard part of all equiment after 1500'.

I've found telepathy much harder to get in randart games. telepathy amulets are pretty deep. The ego helm could be made deeper, sometimes I don't find any until pretty late though. But if you want to reduce the availability of telepathy you need to move thranduil and dor-lomin deeper and make them rarer too. (item drop might fix this, so changes may not be necessary)

2) There should be lots of on-screen, automatic help for newcomers. The help files have lots of useful information, but it takes too long to navigate them, and my idea is a window that, throught the game, automatically displays portions of the help menu in a side window. For example, during player birth, as the player scrolls through race and class, a separate window authmatically displays the paragraph from the help files for those races/classes. As the player scrolls through options, the paragraph fro the help menus describing each option should pop up. While they are in the town, describe each store....while they are in the dungeon, have the list of commands available in a sidebar...similar to what you get when you hit return right now, but the appropriate sub menu comes up depending on the player's situation. When the player gets hit by something in combat, the help window could give a brief summary of the attack they are facing. etc....

I like this idea and would be willing to help write the text. I don't think I could figure out the UI needed to implement it though...

I agree with the stuff I didn't comment on. These were overall good suggestions.

[nobody]

Prices for selling stuff should be way lower, assuming we aren't ready to move to a no-selling game yet.

This is a goal? I could never accept the removal of selling in vanilla. I've tried it in a variant, and NEVER AGAIN.

[Derakon]

Nobody: it's a pseudo-goal, for some of us at least. The actual goal (again, unofficially) is to make the town unnecessary, so that you get all of your items organically from normal exploration. Returning to town breaks the flow of the game; ideally it shouldn't be needed at all (and some kind of mobile analogue to the home should be created). But this isn't really the place for that.

Birth help would be awesome. ToME 2 has it -- when you highlight a given option (gender, race, class, etc.), a short paragraph shows up that describes the option. More importantly, the race/class stat modifiers are displayed right there on the selection screen. Having to dive into the help files just to see what a dwarf's strength modifier is is a major pain.

[AnonymousHero]

Birth help would be awesome. ToME 2 has it -- when you highlight a given option (gender, race, class, etc.), a short paragraph shows up that describes the option. More importantly, the race/class stat modifiers are displayed right there on the selection screen. Having to dive into the help files just to see what a dwarf's strength modifier is is a major pain.

Just to be clear: ToME doesn't display the modifiers for the selected race/class/etc. immediately, you still have to press "?". However, the display is (subjectively) much clearer than Vanilla in that you only see stuff that's relevant to the chosen option rather than having to look through tables, etc. Colouring also helps make the information much easier to scan visually.

[fizzix]

Birth help would be awesome. ToME 2 has it -- when you highlight a given option (gender, race, class, etc.), a short paragraph shows up that describes the option. More importantly, the race/class stat modifiers are displayed right there on the selection screen. Having to dive into the help files just to see what a dwarf's strength modifier is is a major pain.

You don't need to do this in V, the modifiers are displayed prominently...

[AnonymousHero]

You don't need to do this in V, the modifiers are displayed prominently...

There are a couple of things that are "missing": skill modifiers (per level and the starting values) and it would also be nice to have the current totals displayed (I think FA does this?).

[Magnate]

It's been awhile since I played a standart game, so I don't have a good feel for what its general artifact rarity is like. However, I've definitely felt (as I've noted several times) that useful randarts don't start showing up at all reliably until the endgame. There'll be, oh, 2-4 randarts (not counting the phial) that I get in the 1000'-3000' range, but the rest show up when I'm in the depths.

Mind, I get a decent number of useless weapon randarts, but I don't really pay any attention to them.

You have indeed mentioned this before, but you seem to be in a minority. In my last game I found two randarts in quick succession around 1350-1400', and they were both keepers (one I was wearing at the end, the other I kept until around 4800'). There were half a dozen other decent or semi-decent before the final levels (along with the chaff, natch). That tends to be the norm for me - enough decent artifacts to compete with, but not totally obsolete, available ego items. That's kind of how it's supposed to be, and how I am assuming it is for most people unless they say otherwise. So there are a few possibilities:

1. You are consistently unlucky. (I think we can discount this one.)

2. This is a real problem which most people haven't mentioned.

3. Your standard of "useful" is higher than most people's.

There are probably others, of course. If it's not too unpalatable, would you mind playing half a dozen standart games for comparison? If you perceive that "useful" artifacts turn up in consistently earlier and in quantity, I promise to do some further research.