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in the sense of being too strong, particularly against endgame bosses?
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Ironband - http://angband.oook.cz/ironband/ -
They're basically the only remotely effective protection against melee that doesn't involve not standing in melee range. In that sense, I suppose they're broken. In practice, I've found that even if you're a priest they're too expensive to cast regularly; you'd generally rather save your mana for healing. And you can't rely on them 100% to protect you from melee since the rune breaks before the monster attacks, not afterwards.
So generally speaking, I'd say they're quite useful, but not broken. Especially now that Sea of Runes isn't a valid tactic for denying summoning spells. -
Monster summons used to be centered around the player and not around the summoner. If you wanted to deny any summons you just needed to surround yourself with 8 runes.
Since they're now from the summoner there is always at least one available space to summon in (directly behind)Comment
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Thanks! Honestly I try not to leave myself open to attacks from every direction anyway, so I'd doubt that I'd use that tactic. I'm all about the ASC.Comment
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I think the the "right" tactic is not Sea of Runes, but rather an ASC of runes, e.g.:
This takes many fewer runes, and when one is broken, you simply backup to the next one. Even better, if things aren't going well, you can back up *two* spaces and heal (or Teleport Self, or whatever). Even this is not perfect of course ("teleport to" totally botches it for example), but it is very, very powerful.Code:##########.## ##;#;#;#.#.## #;#;#;#.#..## ##########.##
For the record, I consider this to be cheating/abuse. But it is hard to know exactly where to draw the line regarding [ab]use of Runes.Comment
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Sea of Runes was specifically an anti-Morgoth tactic. Find a nice open area, lay down your runes, and wait for Morgoth to show up. Shoot at him until he gets close to the runes, then teleport him away and retrieve your ammo. The only things he could do were move or cast attack spells; nothing else would work. Laying down runes in an ASC ahead of time is comparatively tame.Comment
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If runes are supposed to be melee helpers only, a lot of problems could be solved by allowing only a maximum number of runes (possibly only one) to exist at the same time. Cast a second rune and the first gets destroyed.Comment
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I seem to recall that Eddie or Pete had another solution to make Rune of Protection more specific. I think it basically amounted to "cast it, and until a monster breaks it or you move, you can't be hit in melee."Comment
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My limited experience with runes are that they are of almost no use until Morgoth. In a fight where you're using a lot of them, sure, but the only fight where that is true is when you are ready to burn a stack of ?rune or !mana and that is only against Morgoth. Still, it is one of the scrolls I hoard (Angband is the game of hoarding) but if I run out of home space I carry them and even eventually drop them. My warrior won without finding one.
In the final fight if I have scroll or spell of course I cast them and melee. When summons get out of hand I phase away and if I later phase back near that same rune I get on it.
ASC of runes, I don't know. I never thought of that. It seems like it would be a drain on SP or a waste of !mana, but maybe with a stack of _magi not a big deal.
I guess my point is that I don't see them as necessities to win (I would stash 1 ?massBanish over 5 ?rune) so nerfing them is no big deal. For me rune is an immediate melee prevention mechanism so having only 1 active at any time, even only until you leave it, sounds fine to me especially if the concern is abuse. OTOH my general feeling about "abuse" is that if exploiting the game is what you call fun do it.Last edited by nullfame; July 21, 2010, 06:02.Comment
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@nullfame:
if you are willing to abuse LOS as a mage, Rune of Protection can make a huge difference against tough opponents. (I'm talking about Ungoliant, who is almost impossible for a mage to kill via ordinary methods. She does huge max damage and has massive HP--more than Sauron. Unique angels are another reasonable victim for runes.)
Another use for rune is a cheaper guaranteed escape for rangers and paladins.
If you can duck behind the rune to get out of LOS, you can rely on your non-zero fail escpaes. If the monster breaks the rune before you can escape, use your genuine guaranteed escape (?TL, ?*Desctruct*)Comment
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If you want "broken" usage of runes make hockey-stick corridor filled with them and then use stone-to-mud to open it up sitting in safe position. Then use rift/meteor storm/OoD/missiles to kill the baddie. Cheesy tactic, but works.
Those tactics don't work against wall-eaters, against those it is only melee-protection.Comment
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the way I (ab)used them was to find a very nasty monster in a nearby room, but where there is no direct corridor connecting them. then dig an ASC almost all the way there, fill the ASC with runes, (resting when you need to) and then when it's all done, rest up, go dig through that last hole in the wall and wail on your opponent, backing up as you have to when a rune breaks. This way you still have max SP and HP when you start the battle, but still loads of protective runes. perhaps I'm just a wuss, but I never saw them as abuse as such, just my way of defeating very nasty enemies, ungoliant being a classic example, or the unique balrogs or angels.
teleport to certainly is a pain with this technique but it's work-outable.
dave
PS. one would think that res_nexus ought to make you proof against teleport to? though by that logic would it also make you proof against teleport in general..? never mind me
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This is my point. If rune ASC is the way you deal with these go for it.
My solution to the spiders and angels is to not fight them unless the terrain is favorable (e.g., in a vault, twisty corridors, moated crosshatch, by an orc pit, or with create doors). The balrogs I might take on with some slay demon ammo and a _banish but the problem there is fighting 1 the other 3 are close behind via summon.
Yeah, I guess I've done this once or twice. That strikes me as a valid, intended use. So I guess I would be in the "there can be only one" camp rather than it disappearing when you leave it, if it needs changing at all.Comment
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In my view ASC is valid tactic and runes just complete it. It requires preparation which is perfectly OK and doesn't abuse the fact that targeting does not follow same rules as LoS.
What needs to be fixed is hockey stick. Using that is just plain wrong and shouldn't be possible. I have no problem with asymmetric LoS, but I think targeting is broken. IE shooting in situation like:
Code:##### ..@.. X#### is OK because monster is in your LoS but ##### #..@. #.### X#### is not because monster is not in your LoS.
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