what is considered a clean win?

[aricz]

Yeps, that's what I've heard too. When you're in deep shiaaat, read "scroll of teleport level".

But the <> and WoR into a nonlit room, without telepathy.. or first step 'detect' and BAM "breathes --more--". Not sure if any monsters which can't be detected by telepathy can kill you like that.

[Djabanete]

Drolems can.

[Mondkalb]

This leads to the many advantages of high stealth, which might prevent such unfortunate constellations.

[Orion071]

Hi, my first post on these boards.

I found this site as I was searching for a way to kill Morgoth. I've just completed my first ever win with no save-scumming or even level-scumming (boring? maybe, but I didn't even know it was an option until I came here. ) Sure, he was a Dunadan Ranger (vanilla 3.0.6), but man it feels great to finally get a win.

I did use some of the 'slightly cheating' techniques like anti-summoning corridors, but I consider that one of the advantages of playing a character with a stone-to-mud spell.

So, yes, it can be done!

[Daven_26d1]

I did use some of the 'slightly cheating' techniques like anti-summoning corridors, but I consider that one of the advantages of playing a character with a stone-to-mud spell.

There is nothing even 'slightly cheating' about shaping the dungeon to your advantage. Using stone to mud (or even digging, if you have time to set it up) in this way is a totally valid tactic.

There are lots of tactical options (like LOS abuse, and getting in a free shot by firing point blank before meleeing an equal speed opponent, if you get 2 shots with your bow) that feel like cheating, but shouldn't be considered so because the games interface allows them. These cases are examples of an exploitable imperfect system, but in the case of tricks with stone to mud, things like that are part of the intent of the spell, AFAIK.

Congrats on the win!

[nobody]

what else are you going to use stone to mud for?
and pillar dancing would work with someone your faster then in RL, of course it works in angband and it's crazy to call it cheating

autoscumming will almost certainly be gone in 3.1.0, so that point is almost moot now.

savescumming is evil and morally wrong

[darkdrone]

its all a learning process. and real life you cant start over either ... OR go back and do things right ... so why would it be different in *Band ?

to be honest, i used to do Save-Scum when i began , but after a while it got boring.
i agree its annoying to lose one's "best Character EVER" but hey its *Band , you'll get a BETTER character eventually .... thats called 'replay value'

My pointers on not to save-scum and yet enjoy the game.

1. learn from your mistakes and dont make them again.

2. learn to run away.

3. 'L'ook effectively , sometimes a 'a' is not a regular a but a Queen Ant !!

4. ask the Old Hands of Band either here or r.g.r.a - you ALWAYS get something helpful...

best wishes,
dD

[Daven_26d1]

what else are you going to use stone to mud for?

1 - a means to access vaults with that gnome thief who gets all slow (-2) just looking at a pick.

2 - clearing pits. Slime pits cause a problem once you've fireballed everything from the door and you have to actually enter the pit; taking out the corners, one at a time & quickly, so you aren't hassled by fresh spawning monsters takes the strain off a bit, and in fact the 4 way crossfire should give you enough room to cleanse most of them entirely with beams and balls.

3 - opening 'doors' from a distance, so that you dont get instantly triple turned by the crazy fast unique on the other side.

other uses too, though similar to the ones mentioned already in thread. Some variants let you hurt stone creatures with the spell, which is handy if they resist your only weapon. Can't remember if this is true in V or not.

[Jothar Hillpeople]

Glorfindel save-scummed too, but nobody says anything...

The game is much different without save-scumming, more rewarding, with more thinking. Of course, not everyone has the time or patience to invest in getting a character up to level 41 and then getting killed by a creature and having to start all over again. If you're married with kids and hold down a real job, this is even harder to do. Save scumming is ok as long as you don't claim it's a win the "hard-core" way.

Of course, the gameplay is much more compelling below level 40 anyway. The later leveling is long and boring.

[aeneas]

what else are you going to use stone to mud for?
and pillar dancing would work with someone your faster then in RL, of course it works in angband and it's crazy to call it cheating

Leaving aside, for a moment, the fact that Angband isn't real life... to pillar dance in real life you would need a calculator, time to use it, and an exact numeric measure of your speed and your opponents speed. In real life, even if you are a bit quicker than I am, if you step from behind a pillar and throw a punch at me and I slip it, I don't think you will be able to step behind the pillar before I can hit you back, or start to grapple.

But Angband isn't real life. The problem with pillar dancing is that it allows you to kill even the most dangerous adversary with _no_ risk at all. It's not cheating, but it is not clean, IMHO.

There are a lot of ways to abuse the Angband system without touching a savefile. Some of them make V, at least, pretty trivial. Some just make it a bit easier.

As for ASCs... they're certainly not cheating, but they do make the game a _lot_ easier. This is a matter of personal preference, but I would consider a win using ASCs a very different thing than a win without them. At least before floor stacking there was some price to be paid for them. Now they just turn the most dangerous uniques in the game into treasure chests. Actually, I think this is the biggest area of unbalance in V. I think the best solution would be to make the ASC impossible, and slightly tone down the worst summoners.

[Eagle]

I've been playing this game for over 15 years. Started with Rogue, then Moria and (Z)angband.
Vanilla was and is my favorite. The first years I save-scummed a lot. Then I got into the game. Digging up all kind of resources on the internet and by experience about weapon damages, when do I get an extra swing (STR/DEX tabels), what resistence do I need from what level onwards, and so on. This knowledge played a crucial part in being able to win this game with no savescum abuse. My first Mage-win is still, 10 years later, a highlight in my gamehistory. That year I also won with a Priest and a Ranger.
After that I'm trying to win the game with a warrior, but I never got close again. Basically because my knowledge of the game mechanics has weakenen. The game has changed, and I forgot some things. That's why I allways die a stupid death. Going too deep, too soon. And things like that.
Does that make me sad?
No, I like death. It gives me the change to start again, and rejoice killing Wormtongue (again), finding the Phial (again) and every other good thing this game has to offer.

[Pete Mack]

I was intro'd to Angband in 1995. I played off and on for several years, then tried with a vengeance again in 2005. After several weeks of playing a few hours each day, I finally won the game. BUT after reading some posts here, it seems I may have a dirty win. I would save the game as I went, and if I died, I would re-open the game before I got the tombstone, and play with a different action. It seems impossible to me to play the game without doing so, and still get past exp level 25.
So, is this a clean win? or should I stop doing that, and simply start over when I die?

As others have said, it's not a clean win. But no, you don't need to start over.

Save a character at dl 20 (or just a few levels before you tend to run into trouble) and keep starting from there until you get to the next milestone without dying, around dl 40. If you get bored with the character, start another one and use that instead. (I consider every 20 levels to be a milestone in strategy.) Starting from dl 1 when you are focusing on dl 25 is too much trouble. But starting from where you died is a really big mistake--you can't learn from your errors then.

BTW: death at cl 25 is usually because you don't have enough CCW and/or a source of escape (ie teleportation). You should have at least a staff of Teleportation in case you get mobbed by hummerhorns or fireflies. Scrolls of Teleport Level (and *Destruction*, but it's rare) are the very best way to escape really dire trouble with low HP. Always buy out the black market if you see them for sale.

[Zero]

I've always considered any intentional use of -Clone Monster to be a severe form of cheating, second only to save scumming in heinousness, and the equal of breeder farming.

Then again, maybe that's why I've played for years and never won a game. It's surprising to me that cloning hasn't been mentioned on this thread. What do you think? Is cloning legit?

I guess I have pretty high standards for what constitutes cheating. I'm starting to feel that even object detection is cheap. You can just keep going from level to level looking for the objects you want. I turned off connected stairs to prevent this, but with stair detection it doesn't take that long to scum anyway.

[Djabanete]

@Zero: I feel that anything you are allowed to do within the framework of the game is perfectly legit. Thus, in my view, any game in which there are safe, profitable, and infinitely repeatable actions (such as stairscumming or wyrm cloning) is inherently "broken". You may try to "fix" the game by changing the options or setting arbitrary restrictions for yourself (I do both), but in doing so, you're just basically covering up the flaws of a flawed game. Taking advantage of such actions is not cheating --- it's playing the game *as the game actually is*.

But I agree that it's less rewarding.

[Mondkalb]

The main problem with *band is, that newbies need pretty much endurance to proceed because there are so many new and unkowns monsters and uniques, the deeper you go. Many of them are extremely dangerous and you only will know that when you are almoust or already dead.
Without enough perseverance people are likely to give up after serveral sudden deaths.

This had been one reason for me to play with save scumming for quite a long time until I had reached a level of reasonable knowledge (and a monster memory to remember this knowledge).

The game is still dangerous and I can't keep track of all the deadly abilities and breath attacks that any monster may have. Every time I start with a new char and therefore without any monster memory my heroes keep dying for unforeseen and daffy reasons.