How does this compare to ZangbandTK?

[Mushuukyou]

Is there a big difference?

[Derakon]

What is "this"? Are you talking about Vanilla in general? Vanilla is the base game from which all other Angband variants derive. Since most variants simply add a bunch of new stuff, Vanilla is simpler and more streamlined -- fewer races, fewer classes, fewer monsters, and generally better balance. However, Vanilla's also gotten way more advances in UI than most variants have.

[Mushuukyou]

What is "this"? Are you talking about Vanilla in general? Vanilla is the base game from which all other Angband variants derive. Since most variants simply add a bunch of new stuff, Vanilla is simpler and more streamlined -- fewer races, fewer classes, fewer monsters, and generally better balance. However, Vanilla's also gotten way more advances in UI than most variants have.

Have you played ZangbandTK? Do you feel the Vanilla option is more advanced in some ways?

[Derakon]

I have not played ZangbandTk, but it's my understanding that the *Tk games are basically prettier versions of their base games. Thus, ZangbandTk is a prettier version of Zangband, which split off from the Vanilla codebase ages ago. They're going to be pretty different games; I can't simply rank them and say "this game is more advanced than this other game."

I suggest you just download Vanilla and give it a shot.

[Donald Jonker]

For playing Zangband (and not Z+angband), ZTk is undoubtedly the superior choice given the huge improvements to UI, including squelch which aren't available under other versions.

If you're playing the "Vanilla Town" option under ZangTk, it is light-years away from current Vanilla Angband, since it's still a variant and not vanilla, the only real difference that comes from that option is the lack of wilderness and quests.

There is, however AngbandTk (I don't remember which version... 2.9.3, maybe?). The game has changed a whole lot since then. All these versions have their merits, but the most modern is current vanilla, if you can part with the pretty-windows UI of Tk. Other UI elements are vastly improved.

[Mushuukyou]

What UI elements are vastly improved since ZTK?

Couldn't they have taken everything in ZTK and just added/changed to it to bring vanilla up to speed?

[flechette]

I think you are missing the point. ZTK is a port of vanilla Angband. Vanilla doesn't go swimming around in source ports for updates. If it did, we'd have sherbet vanilla Angband. While it may taste good, it'd effectively source port itself, and that's a step away from dividing by zero.

[Mushuukyou]

I think you are missing the point. ZTK is a port of vanilla Angband. Vanilla doesn't go swimming around in source ports for updates. If it did, we'd have sherbet vanilla Angband. While it may taste good, it'd effectively source port itself, and that's a step away from dividing by zero.

Not sure I get it.

Ok, so Angband doesn't aspire to have all that ZTK does? Or it does, but it needs to be written their way?

I'm not sure what you mean by "source port itself".

[buzzkill]

It's like ice cream. You start with Vanilla. If you want chocolate ice cream, you add chocolate (more or less). What you don't do is take the chocolate ice cream and try to remove the chocolate to get vanilla, even if the chocolate ice cream tastes better (in your opinion). You have to go back to the basic vanilla and make the improvements you want without turning it into chocolate. If you're disciplined, you'll end up with a better vanilla and if your not you'll get 'french vanilla' or 'vanilla chocolate chip'.

Think of vanilla as 'traditional' Angband. Changes have been made and are still being made that make the game better without changing the core of the game.

[Mushuukyou]

Ok, I think I get it... but, isn't it kinda... gray?

I mean... the minimap would be great to have like what they have in ZTK... so maybe *maybe* vanilla will do it like that? ... but then, we have all of these outside areas unlike vanilla's town... sooo... do they draw the line there? No outside areas? Or.. maybe they will, but make it optional? ... I mean... how does one determine what's vanilla and what's added extra stuff that won't be preferred by the vanilla lovin people?

I'm just trying to understand here.. not tryin' to be a pest.

[Derakon]

Angband's supported a minimap for years. Open another window and set it to "Map" in the windows options.

As for a wilderness, I don't think that's ever going to happen. Hell, the relatively recent addition of several new ego-items and artifacts was controversial as it is. I wouldn't expect to see quests either, nor new races or classes.

Vanilla does change over time. If you were to compare the original Angband to what we have now, it plays very differently. But Vanilla changes slowly. New features don't get added without a lot of consideration.

[buzzkill]

This is just my opinion. Others may disagree with me.

Vanilla should be what Vanilla has always been. It shouldn't change, it should just improve upon what it already is. The maintainers should tweak the user interface to make the game easier to play. They should fix bugs that pop up and keep the code current so it will play on modern operating systems. They should make changes when necessary in order to fix game mechanics that are not working as originally intended.

It doesn't really matter what the maintainers or the banding community wants to add to Vanilla, or what they want Vanilla to be. If anyone wants to add or remove something from Vanilla (or any variant) they can, that's where variants come from. Lots of people have good ideas that just aren't vanilla (because vanilla can only be what it already is), that's why there are so many variants, some better than others, some similar to each other, all different from Vanilla.

Will vanilla ever have a wilderness, multiple dungeons, or quests? Plenty of variants have these things, IMO Vanilla never should.

Maybe vanilla is like water is a better analogy. Water is pretty much water. The water today is pretty much like the water 100 years ago. If you don't like water, have a Coke, or a beer, or a cup of coffee, all variants of water.

[Mushuukyou]

Angband's supported a minimap for years. Open another window and set it to "Map" in the windows options.

As for a wilderness, I don't think that's ever going to happen. Hell, the relatively recent addition of several new ego-items and artifacts was controversial as it is. I wouldn't expect to see quests either, nor new races or classes.

Vanilla does change over time. If you were to compare the original Angband to what we have now, it plays very differently. But Vanilla changes slowly. New features don't get added without a lot of consideration.

Yes, I know about the minimap.
However, it's not quite as detailed as ZTK's.

I get what you guys are saying, I suppose.

[Derakon]

Well, the detail level depends on how big you make the window for the map. Personally, I prefer to just play with as large of a main view as possible. I find I don't need the minimap that way.

[Donald Jonker]

This is all by way of saying that different variant developers have different priorities. Vanilla, by definition, is what Andi Sidwell says it is. He's very generous in asking outside opinions, but it still comes down to his yea or nay. And he (and those others who contribute code for vanilla) don't figure ZTk's features to be a high enough priority to warrant working on. I personally would like to see a lot of the Tk features implemented in vanilla, but I'd rather see the core game take priority first, and that seems to be the general consensus, given the way the game has developed over the years.

Those are (mostly for) better or worse, the breaks with free, open source, non-donationware gaming.