What is "balance" anyway

[Timo Pietilä]

In my opinion, high game balance is boring in the long run, and actually *reduces* replayability.

My point exactly. I wanted to draw that point into game developers attention.

Game balance should *not* be about getting everything to be equal and similar power. Game is balanced when it is not "balanced" if you know what I mean.

Ever played Topi Ylinen -era zangband? That was fun. Crazy and "unbalanced" but fun like nothing I had played before. Then that game was taken over by bunch of "developers" that flattened it to "balanced" and boring. They added a lot of features, but because all of those features were "balanced" they were not interesting.

TY-curse anybody? Kill unique and get five Cyberdemons all firing rockets to you. Instant death, but fun as like nothing else.

I already know what monsters/items/whatever can be found at a particular depth, no matter what character I play. So what is the point to play again? Differences between classes/races are not significant enough.

Also, balance severely limits player choices. I know that I have to spend time at stat gain, find source of all basic resistances around level X, improve speed around level Y, etc.
That creates few - maybe three- effective styles of playing, and after 15 or so years of *banding becomes boring as hell.

Heh, you newbie ;-). For challenge try egoless chars. Or like I tried artifactless, egoless Dwarf Priest. Bookless, artifactless hobbit mage. Of course even those get boring after a while. Diving was fun for a while, but not very long. After a few tries it reduced to just little bit faster games with exactly same problems as longer games.

[Timo Pietilä]

Yeah, interesting the first time it happens, but if such things happen more than once in a great while it would get really frustrating, really fast. At least with uniques, you may have a shot at killing them. An ancient dragon appearing at DL's native to baby dragons is an unfair (ugh!) death sentence.

Why would it be death sentence? And why would it be bad thing? Even if you die? If you die you start a new char. If you notice it you avoid it. And then there is area into dungeon where you can't go. If there is something in that area that you want then you have a dilemma: what to do?

Of course occurrences of such things should be rare and depends of your dlvl, but there should at least be a chance of such thing to happen every now and then. That would be like the one time I found RedDSM at dlvl 1. Or like that dance of death I did with Vecna in NPP *WAY* before I was ready to meet it: in NPP there is monster spell that allow *THEM* to teleport next to you, and it doesn't require LoS. There was a CGV into that level. One moment you are roaming into dungeon like usual, and next *baf* there is faster-than-you instakiller next to you. Teleport. It follows. Teleport. It follows. That was interesting. Scary and interesting. It would have been interesting even if I would died, because it was so drastically different than ordinary adventuring.

Survival would be a matter of luck (flip a coin type luck). You might a well have rare and undetectable traps that occasionally insta-kills a player. Interesting?

Well, yes, that would be interesting for a while. But too deadly for staying interesting for longer period of time....at least if those would not be really really rare. Like finding Bladeturner.

[Ferrat]

Well, I have played thousands of games. Differences between "resists" and "abilities" are not really differences to me anymore. I know what to use and when to use it. What I require for my interest to stay is events that differ from game to game.

I have played all kinds of challenge-games and for some time I also dived quite fast, but even that turns pretty boring after a while. Every dive was the same, just with different gear. There are exciting events missing. When you have seen Azriel 10000 times it stops being interesting even when he appears at the place where you can get killed. Even situations that lead to dying isn't interesting when you have died who know how many times.

Sounds like Timo wants more strategic choices in the game. Things that require long term planning rather than being opportunistic. Challenge games are mostly strategic. However when you complete one, you don't need to think so much to do it again. After a while this is boring. Low turncount games are tests of tactical skill, with a fixed strategy of diving to look for opportunities. Again, boring for someone who likes strategy.

I think the question of balance is how to make the game more interesting for strategy people without annoying the tactical people.

[konijn_]

I was just complementing. I don't die that often. Dis does leave you equipped at that. It just goes from easy to oh sh*t! In one staircase.

Balance to me based is the challenges and occurences in a game. Balanced games tend to more or less play the same way with minor diversions. You know more or less where and when the big fights and big items are to be had, for some it can get tedious. Unbalanced games with crazy fights out of nowhere, cool items that are as epic in power and rarity, *lots* of flavor, and many chars and classes with very disparate intrinsics and game approaches leave the pool of replay far deeper in the unbalanced game end.

Angband certainly is not the latter but I don't believe its beyond having a little chaos bleed into it.

I realized that you were complimenting after I hit 'submit', I would have undone that post if I could

I am coding proper picking up right now, I think this will be a big improvement.

T.

[Tatami]

I was just complementing. I don't die that often. Dis does leave you equipped at that. It just goes from easy to oh sh*t! In one staircase.

Balance to me based is the challenges and occurences in a game. Balanced games tend to more or less play the same way with minor diversions. You know more or less where and when the big fights and big items are to be had, for some it can get tedious. Unbalanced games with crazy fights out of nowhere, cool items that are as epic in power and rarity, *lots* of flavor, and many chars and classes with very disparate intrinsics and game approaches leave the pool of replay far deeper in the unbalanced game end.

Angband certainly is not the latter but I don't believe its beyond having a little madness bleed into it.

[konijn_]

If you're going to randomize stats of the monsters in order to place them earlier, why not go the whole way and make randomized unique monsters.

Hmm, I am only thinking about damaging hp, not randomizing stats.

T.

[konijn_]

There is nothing balanced about having to deal with frequent pits of dozens of awake death quasits, willowisps and plasma breathers after level 30...

Well, you are supposed to have found tons of good equipment before that.
Do you die because of what you find there or do you run away ?

T.

[konijn_]

Believe me, I've tried most - if not all - Angband variants. Including dead ones. Only Hengband and Sangband keep me interested longer than few minutes. Current version of Hellband is going to wait until I'm in a -banding mood again......which will inevitably happen sooner or later. Next year probably.

Did you try Steamband ?

T.

[Arendil]

Since you mention Hell, you should try playing other variants ;]

T.

Believe me, I've tried most - if not all - Angband variants. Including dead ones. Only Hengband and Sangband keep me interested longer than few minutes. Current version of Hellband is going to wait until I'm in a -banding mood again......which will inevitably happen sooner or later. Next year probably.

[Tatami]

There is nothing balanced about having to deal with frequent pits of dozens of awake death quasits, willowisps and plasma breathers after level 30...

[konijn_]

In my opinion, high game balance is boring in the long run, and actually *reduces* replayability. I already know what monsters/items/whatever can be found at a particular depth, no matter what character I play. So what is the point to play again? Differences between classes/races are not significant enough.

Also, balance severely limits player choices. I know that I have to spend time at stat gain, find source of all basic resistances around level X, improve speed around level Y, etc.
That creates few - maybe three- effective styles of playing, and after 15 or so years of *banding becomes boring as hell.

Since you mention Hell, you should try playing other variants ;]

T.

[Arendil]

In my opinion, high game balance is boring in the long run, and actually *reduces* replayability. I already know what monsters/items/whatever can be found at a particular depth, no matter what character I play. So what is the point to play again? Differences between classes/races are not significant enough.

Also, balance severely limits player choices. I know that I have to spend time at stat gain, find source of all basic resistances around level X, improve speed around level Y, etc.
That creates few - maybe three- effective styles of playing, and after 15 or so years of *banding becomes boring as hell.

[fizzix]

I was thinking about that, what if the game places the Ancient Dragon with enough damage to give the @ a fighting chance ? It would definitely be quite a sight.. Drop generation would have to take the reduced hp into consideration, monsters with healing spells should never be placed that way. I dont know about you, but that could be quite exciting I think.

T.

If you're going to randomize stats of the monsters in order to place them earlier, why not go the whole way and make randomized unique monsters.

[konijn_]

Yeah, interesting the first time it happens, but if such things happen more than once in a great while it would get really frustrating, really fast. At least with uniques, you may have a shot at killing them. An ancient dragon appearing at DL's native to baby dragons is an unfair (ugh!) death sentence. Survival would be a matter of luck (flip a coin type luck). You might a well have rare and undetectable traps that occasionally insta-kills a player. Interesting?

I was thinking about that, what if the game places the Ancient Dragon with enough damage to give the @ a fighting chance ? It would definitely be quite a sight.. Drop generation would have to take the reduced hp into consideration, monsters with healing spells should never be placed that way. I dont know about you, but that could be quite exciting I think.

T.

[buzzkill]

Lots of them isn't what I want. But occasional Ancient Red Dragon where others are baby dragons is...interesting.

Yeah, interesting the first time it happens, but if such things happen more than once in a great while it would get really frustrating, really fast. At least with uniques, you may have a shot at killing them. An ancient dragon appearing at DL's native to baby dragons is an unfair (ugh!) death sentence. Survival would be a matter of luck (flip a coin type luck). You might a well have rare and undetectable traps that occasionally insta-kills a player. Interesting?