Is speed overpowered?

[TJS]

Since more and more fundamental parts of the game are being discussed at the moment I thought I'd ask this.

It seems to me that boosts to speed are by far the most powerful things a character can get. I luckily found a ring of speed +10 and an artifact weapon that gave +5 to speed early in a recent game and it made the game so much easier than usual it seemed a bit silly.
In that game I got 2.5 moves to every one I normally have at that point, so I could for example attack and heal and still have half a move left over compared to just being able to perform one action at normal speed.

Is this desirable speed being so powerful? Also should certain items have such large boosts to speed? Boots of Speed +10 are probably much better than 80% of artifacts.

With less consumables around and hence less !Speed and _Speed it makes lucky finds of +speed equipment that much more powerful.

Maybe a balance could be brought in whereby the faster your speed, the slower your HP and SP are regenerated. The logic for this could be because you're moving so much faster the body has less chance to heal/regain mana. Then you could make regen items cumilative, so you could for example get an amulet of regen +2.

[miyazaki]

Since more and more fundamental parts of the game are being discussed at the moment I thought I'd ask this.

It seems to me that boosts to speed are by far the most powerful things a character can get. I luckily found a ring of speed +10 and an artifact weapon that gave +5 to speed early in a recent game and it made the game so much easier than usual it seemed a bit silly.
In that game I got 2.5 moves to every one I normally have at that point, so I could for example attack and heal and still have half a move left over compared to just being able to perform one action at normal speed.

Is this desirable speed being so powerful? Also should certain items have such large boosts to speed? Boots of Speed +10 are probably much better than 80% of artifacts.

With less consumables around and hence less !Speed and _Speed it makes lucky finds of +speed equipment that much more powerful.

Maybe a balance could be brought in whereby the faster your speed, the slower your HP and SP are regenerated. The logic for this could be because you're moving so much faster the body has less chance to heal/regain mana. Then you could make regen items cumilative, so you could for example get an amulet of regen +2.

I think that your game is definitely an outlier. I once found a rod of lightning balls on dlvl4 and it made the early game ridiculously easy, but as I dove, the monsters caught up. I died later on. What happened in your game? +15 speed would allow you to dive fast and possible have a shot at finishing quickly, but there is no single piece of equipment that will give you the game. The monsters will catch up to you as you descend, even at that speed! I'd chalk it up to good luck--it probably won't happen again no matter how many games you play!

[TJS]

I think that your game is definitely an outlier. I once found a rod of lightning balls on dlvl4 and it made the early game ridiculously easy, but as I dove, the monsters caught up. I died later on. What happened in your game? +15 speed would allow you to dive fast and possible have a shot at finishing quickly, but there is no single piece of equipment that will give you the game. The monsters will catch up to you as you descend, even at that speed! I'd chalk it up to good luck--it probably won't happen again no matter how many games you play!

I managed to get to lvl 98 in around 400k turns and get to character lvl 50 in 550k turns. I found boots of speed +9 and another +10 speed ring to give me +37 speed unhasted.

But I got a bit bored trying to find a source of banishment for the last fights so I've left the game for the moment to come back to later (and get killed).

[Derakon]

My warrior just found Boots of Speed +8 at 2900' and immediately equipped them over his +3 stealth boots. It was a complete no-brainer, and it made several enemies that had been completely unapproachable up to then possible to be killed (c.f. Master Mystics).

The speed of monsters has a huge impact on how deadly they are. Bolg and Azog are by far the nastiest orc uniques, for example. Compare Bolg to Ufthak; Ufthak has 4x3d4 melee hits and 320 hitpoints, while Bolg has 4x3d6 melee hits and 500 hitpoints. Yet Bolg is way more than twice as dangerous than Ufthak; typically most of the orc uniques I can just take down without any particularly special preparations, while the fast ones require a great deal more care. The Master Mystics I mentioned earlier are very fast (i.e. 3x normal speed), and every other turn they either summon or heal themselves. Combine that with their stunning, cutting melee attacks and you pretty much literally cannot kill them without a source of permanent speed.

So yes, speed is overpowered, on both sides of the equation. This means that getting speed early for the player is a major power boost -- and not getting it until later than usual is a huge source of added difficulty. Should this be fixed somehow? Possibly, but it's going to take way more than just nerfing player speed, since that makes every fast monster in the game incredibly dangerous.

(Hell, just compare the giant lice to the giant mice and worm masses. Worm masses can be taken care of almost regardless of how far you've let them spread; mice you need to keep an eye on; lice need to be killed before there's more than four of them or they'll just breed out of control and slowly nibble you to death)

A quick bit of statistics for you: of the 553 monsters in monsters.txt, 306 of them move at normal speed, 217 are fast, 63 are very fast, and 7 are incredibly fast (Magic mushroom patches, Shimmering molds, Death molds, Harowen the Black Hand, Pazuzu, Lord of Air, Cantoras, the Skeletal Lord, and Morgoth, Lord of Darkness). 22 are slow and 1 is very slow (Black Oozes).

% grep "^I" monster.txt | cut -d: -f2 | sort | uniq -c | sort -gr
 306 110
 217 120
  63 130
  22 100
   7 140
   1 90

[fizzix]

As miyazaki said, your game was an outlier with two lucky early finds. I would only suggest minor tweaks to speed along the lines of making BoS fairly common at dlevel 90+ but insanely rare at dlevels under 40. I've been seeing a lot of dumps with a BoS find early on. Maybe that'll drop if egos are tweaked.

I'd also like monsters to have a larger range of speeds besides -10, 0, +10, +20 and +30. I know there's some deviation around that number. But I think will_asher has the idea right in DJA. He added different speeded monsters at -5, +5 and +15 (I think).

I wonder what would be the effect of slowing attacks being much lower and cumulative. Say at -2 speed for an inertia hound breath and -5 speed for a slow spell. The same with haste. You can cap the total hasted at like +10 and the total slowed at -10 or so. Potions and Staves of speed can give you +5 and rods the full +10 because they're so damn rare. And the spell can vary with clevel. Is something like this in any of the variants?

[Derakon]

The ToME Haste Self spell increases the modifier as your skill level increases. If I recall correctly, all of the other haste/slow effects all work at +- 10, though. A quick check through the monster list shows plenty of non-"integer" speed levels, though.

Being slowed sucks, and when you combine it with the monster group AI, it's pretty hard to avoid when you're dealing with Inertia and Gravity Hounds. I wouldn't mind seeing variable levels of slowing, perhaps using a similar algorithm as the stun/heavy stun/knocked out system.

[RogerN]

I don't find that speed is unbalanced in Vanilla, but I agree that it's extremely powerful. That's why +speed items are typically found so deep in the dungeon.

Personally I find it somewhat distasteful that speed is so powerful, but I wouldn't want to see it changed in Vanilla at this point. However, in the variant which I'm perpetually working on, speed only affects your movement - actions such as attacking, using items, and casting spells are always performed at normal speed. Monsters have the same restriction. Thus it's possible to have an extremely fast monster which doesn't necessarily get double or triple attacks against a slow player.

[tummychow]

Perhaps speed should just be more random, on both sides.
Implement a change to the multiplier so only at, say, +15 speed, you are guaranteed two "turns" against a normal speed foe. Then at +30 you are guaranteed three, etc. In other words, reduce the likelyhood of taking several turns and stretch out the scale. That reduces the power of speed without significantly diminishing its value.
On the other hand, that might not really change much unless you changed it for the player without changing it for the monsters.

[Derakon]

The problem I have with random speed is that it increases the likelihood of enemies getting double moves, which in turn increases the likelihood of (and in some cases, simply enables) things like the double manastorm and other instant-death combinations. Sure, it also increases the player's likelihood of getting double moves, but I don't think that's worth it. Predictable turn orders are important for planning in any turn-based combat system.

[tummychow]

Ooh good point. But keep in mind that the speed counts themselves would not have to change. Morgoth with his ridiculous +30 speed would be getting 3 turns if the scale was "stretched". That's one less mana storm.

[fizzix]

Ooh good point. But keep in mind that the speed counts themselves would not have to change. Morgoth with his ridiculous +30 speed would be getting 3 turns if the scale was "stretched". That's one less mana storm.

The point is that Morgy would *sometimes* get a double move in. Right now if you have speed over 30 you are ensured of not getting double moved. If speed was randomized you'd lose that assurance. In fact you'd need to figure out what speed would guarantee you'd not get double moved at all, and that's probably significantly higher than 30. I think one of the variants has a randomized energy system similar to what you suggested, and it has the effect of sometimes causing unavoidable insta-deaths due to getting double or triple moved by something of equal or lesser speed.

There's a fine balance to get *fairness* in the RNG. Randomized speed would throw this way off and you'd need to adjust a whole bunch of other things to compensate.

[zaimoni]

I think one of the variants has a randomized energy system similar to what you suggested, and it has the effect of sometimes causing unavoidable insta-deaths due to getting double or triple moved by something of equal or lesser speed.

Including Hengband and its descendant Entroband.

[buzzkill]

I wouldn't mind seeing a "special case" implemented in situations where both you and your LOS enemy(s) are of the same speed. In particular, I'd think it would be nice if you were fleeing from or chasing an enemy (of the same speed) that occasionally you would either gain or lose a step, thus permitting you to be able to chop your enemy down or heal yourself (or take some other action), or he be able to do the same to you. A random +/- 20% variation every turn (again, only in equal speed situations) I think would do the trick.

A better way to implement this might be to induce an occasional random dip in speed (after so many consecutive turns of movement), frequency based on CON. You know, you tire of running after a while. This would have to be applied to enemies as well.

Not well though out, I'm just throwing it out there.

[TJS]

I think that your game is definitely an outlier. I once found a rod of lightning balls on dlvl4 and it made the early game ridiculously easy, but as I dove, the monsters caught up. I died later on. What happened in your game? +15 speed would allow you to dive fast and possible have a shot at finishing quickly, but there is no single piece of equipment that will give you the game. The monsters will catch up to you as you descend, even at that speed! I'd chalk it up to good luck--it probably won't happen again no matter how many games you play!

Sure I got really lucky in that game (I also found ESP very early on as well), but my point was just that speed is more powerful than any other stat in the game regardless of when you get it.

Would you rather have +10 speed or +10 any other stat? For example +10 strength would get you more blows and allow you to carry a lot more, but +10 speed lets you get twice as many blows in as well a a load of other benefits. Speed seems to be more important than strength for melee fighting, which seems a bit strange to me. Also you can't ever get +10 strength from any one piece of equipment, but you can for speed with rings, boots and some artifacts.
Also phasing and shooting becomes so much more effective when you are moving faster.

With ESP and +20 speed the later levels become a lot easier than earlier levels are without the bonuses in my opinion. There was talk of toning down ESP a bit and making it cumilative starting with a small detection radius. I think that is a good idea and I think something could be done to tone down speed bonuses.

You could spread the +speed around a bit more, adding a few more artifacts with +2 to +5 speed.

So yes, speed is overpowered, on both sides of the equation. This means that getting speed early for the player is a major power boost -- and not getting it until later than usual is a huge source of added difficulty. Should this be fixed somehow? Possibly, but it's going to take way more than just nerfing player speed, since that makes every fast monster in the game incredibly dangerous.

Yes monsters that are faster than you are so much more dangerous than more powerful, but slower monsters. Nightmares move quickly and confuse every time they hit you, this means that if you are at normal speed you will be confused every time you try move. Even if you quaff a !speed you'll not be able to get away since you'll still never get a double move. For warriors you're pretty much dead unless you get lucky trying to use a _Teleportation.

Personally I find it somewhat distasteful that speed is so powerful, but I wouldn't want to see it changed in Vanilla at this point. However, in the variant which I'm perpetually working on, speed only affects your movement - actions such as attacking, using items, and casting spells are always performed at normal speed. Monsters have the same restriction. Thus it's possible to have an extremely fast monster which doesn't necessarily get double or triple attacks against a slow player.

I really like this idea, although it would completely probably unbalance the rest of the game for example probably make fighting Morgoth a whole lot easier.

[Marble Dice]

I'm not sure if small speed bonuses have become more common in recent years or if I've just noticed them more, but I think they definitely improve the game. Seems like it used to be I'd never get speed unless it was ~10 from BoS, =Speed, Ringil, Cubragol, or Feanor, but now I frequently end up with a progression like +2, +5, +9, +12.

The concept of making speed imply movement speed but not turn speed is interesting, but would certainly require significant rebalancing.

One other solution might be to make rings and boots of speed more shallow but adjust their power levels so that you are only likely to find boots or rings with +1 or +2 until much deeper.