Does start game stats matter anymore after reaching/exploiting stat gain depth??

[Nemesis]

I started an NPPAngband Dunadan Paladin yesterday and didn't bother to roll up good stats. I had the idea that stats at the beginning of the game wouldn't matter in the long run as I'd eventually max everything out during the mid-game. However, I'm starting the thread just to be sure, it would be a pity if my character ended up with bad stats because of me being lazy when creating it. In the end, after quaffing a lot of stat potions, plusses and minuses to stats will only determinated by race, class, equipment and temporary stat damage while the base is the same for everyone, right?

I know I started the thread in the Vanilla forum but I figured that NPP is quite a vanilla kind of game (it's not like I'm playing Portalis or ToME ).

[Pete Mack]

Once you max your stats it doesnt matter whatyou started with. But it's a lot mire tedious work if you start low

[Nemesis]

Once you max your stats it doesnt matter whatyou started with. But it's a lot mire tedious work if you start low

Well, I didn't start with rubbish stats, I had that point based system. I got 18 in Strenght, 14 in Dexterity and Wisdom, 16 in Constitution and 10 in Charisma and Intelligence as "self" stats (the stats that are there before the race/class plusses and minuses). Only thing that I'm not content with is that I only get one blow/turn, how do you do to get two? I did put strenght as high as I could and as I'm a Paladin using big swords and such I thought that would do the trick but apparantly not. Is it only with light weapons and dexterity you can do it? Or do you have to be a Half-Troll Warrior or something to hit twice with heavy weapons?

What do you think is most tedious with keeping characters alive to stat gain depth, by the way?? What do you usually succumb to when dying before stat gain depth?

I personally have trouble with the very earliest monsters, especially Farm Maggot's dogs. It's not that they are hard to beat, it's because I don't have any escape/healing/detection items to speak of and I also take more risks as I don't have too much to lose. When it comes to deaths from monsters that appear later than those but before or at stat gain depth, I think I only have one death (Basilisk) and a few close calls (mostly due to me being too brave).

Hmmm, boasting about almost never losing a promising character before stat gain depth counts as RNG revenge bait, right?? So please tell me which monsters that appear between say dlvl5 and dlvl35 that have been most dangerous to your characters so I know what to watch out for when RNG comes to have His/Her/Its vengeance!

[dhegler]

I thought stats worked like this:

You start with 18 in one stat, you start with 10 in another, max for the first may be 18/200, max in the second would only be 18/100. "Lazy" rolls as you say would hurt your character.

And, for extra blows, it is a property of strength plus dexterity. You can look it up in a spoiler. When I had an earlier character, I had a branded whip I could use for 3 blows per round when I could hit once with a sword. No comparison to max damage - the whip was 10x more powerful than the sword with the right branding.

[Nemesis]

I thought stats worked like this:

You start with 18 in one stat, you start with 10 in another, max for the first may be 18/200, max in the second would only be 18/100. "Lazy" rolls as you say would hurt your character.

I'm pretty sure Pete Mack is right, if you check the Ladder you'll see that those clvl 50 adventurers all have the same base points in every stat, only equipment/race/class differs... At least I HOPE Pete Mack is right, as I wasn't only too lazy to roll up the best stats, I didn't even bother rolling at all and used that nerfed points based stat allocation instead!

And, for extra blows, it is a property of strength plus dexterity. You can look it up in a spoiler. When I had an earlier character, I had a branded whip I could use for 3 blows per round when I could hit once with a sword. No comparison to max damage - the whip was 10x more powerful than the sword with the right branding.

As a Dunadan Paladin, my Strength + Dexterity will at least be very good in the end game! Now I only need to make it there; take that small step that's in between "2. Buy Lantern" and "3. Kill Morgoth"...

[dhegler]

I am in the middle of buying the lantern and defeating Morgoth (which I have never gotten close to in the past).

I am surprised at the max stat thing. Although I would guess it would make some sense for every race/class combo to have their own max stats, despite where they start. I hope someone who understands the code can confirm, then I wouldn't waste so much time trying to get max rolls!

[pampl]

Max "base" stats are always 18/100, your initial rolls don't matter beyond bringing you to stat-gain depth. In maximize mode race and class are treated like equipment and modify your stats after they're capped at 18/100, if maximize mode is off then race and class are treated like stat potions and are added in before stats are capped at 18/100.

[dhegler]

I understand now... Everyone maxes at 18/100 BEFORE race/class bonuses...

[Nemesis]

Max "base" stats are always 18/100, your initial rolls don't matter beyond bringing you to stat-gain depth. In maximize mode race and class are treated like equipment and modify your stats after they're capped at 18/100, if maximize mode is off then race and class are treated like stat potions and are added in before stats are capped at 18/100.

In that case, would it be a good idea to make a Half-Troll Mage with Maximize Mode off?




Race + Class Adjustments for a Half-Troll Mage:

Str: -1
Int: -1
Wis: -2
Dex: -3
Con: +1
Cha: -5

Hit dice: 12
Infravision: 3


But in the end, after stat gain, everything would end up at 18/100 before equipment bonuses, and thus all of these penalties would be neutralised?

Wouldn't this be a good way to get a "battle mage", with a few more hit points than other mages and ok all round-stats?

[Marble Dice]

The only reasons to pick mage in my opinion are the 0% fail, word of destruction, and banishment. If you want to emphasize the class's pathetic melee abilities, I'd pick maximized Dunadan instead:

Mage + Dunadan

STR -4
INT +5
WIS +2
DEX +3
CON +1

On average, half trolls will have an extra 51 hp at level 50 (not considering con bonuses which should probably be maxed with equip anyway).

Half trolls have a melee skill that's about 3 levels above what a dunadan mage would have, or ~7 levels over a high elf mage.

The half troll also starts with more strength, but they lack dex. They'll have more carrying capacity, but probably take just as long if not longer to get more blows. At the end of the game (with no stat bonuses), a non-maximize mage can get 4 blows with a 12lb weapon, while a maximize dunadan or high elf mage can use a 16lb weapon.

Playing any mage without maximize is going to increase the burden of getting stats from your equipment, a non-maximize character will need 10 points of spell stat to reach 0% fail, compared to only 4 or 5 points for a maximized high elf or dunadan mage.

I don't think a half-troll's early game advantages (barely more hp, slightly better melee skill) make up for the lack-luster mid to end-game performance, with or without maximize. If you really want a "battle mage" though, I'd just play rogue, ranger, or even priest.

[Nemesis]

The only reasons to pick mage in my opinion are the 0% fail, word of destruction, and banishment. If you want to emphasize the class's pathetic melee abilities, I'd pick maximized Dunadan instead:

Mage + Dunadan

STR -4
INT +5
WIS +2
DEX +3
CON +1

On average, half trolls will have an extra 51 hp at level 50 (not considering con bonuses which should probably be maxed with equip anyway).

Half trolls have a melee skill that's about 3 levels above what a dunadan mage would have, or ~7 levels over a high elf mage.

The half troll also starts with more strength, but they lack dex. They'll have more carrying capacity, but probably take just as long if not longer to get more blows. At the end of the game (with no stat bonuses), a non-maximize mage can get 4 blows with a 12lb weapon, while a maximize dunadan or high elf mage can use a 16lb weapon.

Playing any mage without maximize is going to increase the burden of getting stats from your equipment, a non-maximize character will need 10 points of spell stat to reach 0% fail, compared to only 4 or 5 points for a maximized high elf or dunadan mage.

I don't think a half-troll's early game advantages (barely more hp, slightly better melee skill) make up for the lack-luster mid to end-game performance, with or without maximize. If you really want a "battle mage" though, I'd just play rogue, ranger, or even priest.

I see, it looks like "Maximize Mode" is a rather lousy deal in almost any case and even when you could benefit from it there are better ways to go... And when it comes to early game advantages, the Dunadan has his bonus to charisma which can be of some use in the beginning.

By the way, how does the Kobold race do in the end game? I've always thought them as weak compared to High-Elves and Dunadans with their bad stats and low hit dice but then again, they've got great stealth and infravision with them all the time and poison res might be the best starting resistance in the game as it is both likely to save your life and to save an equipment for something else (blind res seems very good to start with too). You sometimes spend a slot for telepathy and stealth too, which the Kobold might can do without (although Detect Monsters, if avalible, should IMO always be the first hand choice).

Anyway - sorry for rambling - will the bad stats and hit dice cripple Kobolds in the long run or will they matter less after stat gain? Is getting one hit-killed/double move-killed/tele_to-swarmed a much bigger threat for Kobolds than for other races? I know it depends much which class you play, but let's say the obvious Kobold classes Ranger and Rogue.

[tummychow]

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Maximize mode is NEVER a bad deal.
Go into your character screen and take a look at the stats section. You should see several sections - a main column with a number (such as 18/50, this is your base), then three columns: RB, CB and EB. These are race bonus, class bonus and equipment bonus.
When maximize mode is off, your stats max out at 18/100, counting RB and CB. If you get total +5 int from race and class, your max base is 18/50 - 18/50 + 5 points is 18/100.
With max on, your base stat always maxes at 18/100. That's a whopping /50 extra intelligence.
In other words, you pay with slightly weaker starting characters - in exchange your ending stats could be up to +8 higher. There is *never* a reason to turn maximize mode off, unless you are really new. In that case, you might want a stronger starting character to get a feel for things. What better way to go is there besides maximize mode? It's in one of two 'ways' - on or off.
Just because HT mages don't have any effect from maximize doesn't mean that there's no point to the mode as a whole. The only reason to turn it off is in the start of your Angband career, or because you'd like to play a weaker endgame character for some reason (more challenge is the only vaguely acceptable reason for that. You don't turn of maximize because you 'don't like it'. That's dumb.). HT mages don't even make sense - the horrible intellect ruins them. Playing Dunadan for a more brutish mage, or HE for intelligent mage, is a better idea. Combat mages don't exist anyway. Play rogues if you want a little magic and plenty of h2h and shooting. That's why rogues are so much fun - you get a bit of everything. (No prayers, but rogues are thieves - hardly the pious type.)
Kobolds are interesting. I've never played them but poison resistance is definitely the best of the starting actions, outrunning Gnome's free action and High Elf's seeinvis.
As for stat gain, just because you can take stat potions does not mean you should let your starting stats poop out. They are important in the early game still. If you can score two hits with a whip, it'll outprong one hit with a broad sword any day. If you don't try to make the most of starting stats, you'll pay with a weaker starting character and a lower chance of making it to dlevel 30 and those stat potions.
As for taking multiple hits, both strength and dexterity are factors, as well as weapon weight. Lighter weapons are easier to hit multiple times with. Currently, my rogue can take five hits with an executioner's sword - that's just 18/*** dex and 18/200 strength for you. In addition, dex has a big hand in multihits. More so than strength by far. Even as a brute physical class, you need dex just as bad as strength - possibly more so. Dex also has a significant effect on shooting, while strength has almost none. Strength is mainly for weight capacity, because its todam is not high until later on when you can take tons of blows, and it doesn't add hits for a while compared to dex... just my opinion since rogues live on dex.

[Marble Dice]

I see, it looks like [not using] "Maximize Mode" is a rather lousy deal in almost any case and even when you could benefit from it there are better ways to go...

Did you mean to negate that statement? "Maximize mode" is what allows you to get maxes other than 18/100. It's almost always a good idea.

One interesting use might be a non-maximized dwarf mage, since they have negatives in every important stat (str, int, dex, con) but they have resist blind which is quite useful for mages.

By the way, how does the Kobold race do in the end game? I've always thought them as weak compared to High-Elves and Dunadans

Well nothing really compares to dunadan and high-elf, but I think kobolds are definitely competitive with the lesser races. Resist poison is very useful, and it may very well give you more freedom in equipment selection, since poison is one of the resistances people tend to balance kits around. Kobolds have as good as or better hp and melee ability than elves, hobbits, and gnomes, so they're not the most fragile race either. Most of your hp comes from CON anyway, and everyone has to resort to gear to max their hp out at 18/200 CON. The average difference in hp from base hit dice between kobold and dunadan is only 1 per level.

In other words, you pay with slightly weaker starting characters - in exchange your ending stats could be up to +8 higher.

Maybe I don't get non-maximize mode, but I don't understand this statement. Aren't your stats the same in the beginning whether maximize mode is on or off and it's just the end game stats that differ?

Also it looks like toggling the maximize birth option during character creation bugs the point buy system again/still.

[pampl]

As for taking multiple hits, both strength and dexterity are factors, as well as weapon weight. Lighter weapons are easier to hit multiple times with. Currently, my rogue can take five hits with an executioner's sword - that's just 18/*** dex and 18/200 strength for you. In addition, dex has a big hand in multihits. More so than strength by far. Even as a brute physical class, you need dex just as bad as strength - possibly more so. Dex also has a significant effect on shooting, while strength has almost none. Strength is mainly for weight capacity, because its todam is not high until later on when you can take tons of blows, and it doesn't add hits for a while compared to dex... just my opinion since rogues live on dex.

I think he was talking about the player being able to withstand multiple hits, but besides that there's a couple of things I think should be nitpicked:
STR, IIRC, doesn't effect archery.
The whole blow/round formula is really weird with arbitrary thresholds so I don't think one stat can generally be called more important than another, but for the purpose of blows/round any DEX in the range 10-18/09 is as good as any other, and scores in the range 18/10-18/49 are also all equal. STR has thresholds too, but it relatively smoothly increases the max weapon weight at which you can get X blows/round.
DEX bonuses are independent of class. Rogues have good innate melee and ranged skill and so gain less from to-hit bonuses than do mages or priests.

[Nemesis]

Did you mean to negate that statement? "Maximize mode" is what allows you to get maxes other than 18/100. It's almost always a good idea.

Yes, I did get it wrong and meant that turning "maximize mode" off is a lousy deal!

Whoa, whoa, whoa! Maximize mode is NEVER a bad deal.
Go into your character screen and take a look at the stats section. You should see several sections - a main column with a number (such as 18/50, this is your base), then three columns: RB, CB and EB. These are race bonus, class bonus and equipment bonus.
When maximize mode is off, your stats max out at 18/100, counting RB and CB. If you get total +5 int from race and class, your max base is 18/50 - 18/50 + 5 points is 18/100.
With max on, your base stat always maxes at 18/100. That's a whopping /50 extra intelligence.
In other words, you pay with slightly weaker starting characters - in exchange your ending stats could be up to +8 higher. There is *never* a reason to turn maximize mode off, unless you are really new. In that case, you might want a stronger starting character to get a feel for things. What better way to go is there besides maximize mode? It's in one of two 'ways' - on or off.
Just because HT mages don't have any effect from maximize doesn't mean that there's no point to the mode as a whole. The only reason to turn it off is in the start of your Angband career, or because you'd like to play a weaker endgame character for some reason (more challenge is the only vaguely acceptable reason for that. You don't turn of maximize because you 'don't like it'. That's dumb.). HT mages don't even make sense - the horrible intellect ruins them. Playing Dunadan for a more brutish mage, or HE for intelligent mage, is a better idea. Combat mages don't exist anyway. Play rogues if you want a little magic and plenty of h2h and shooting. That's why rogues are so much fun - you get a bit of everything. (No prayers, but rogues are thieves - hardly the pious type.)
Kobolds are interesting. I've never played them but poison resistance is definitely the best of the starting actions, outrunning Gnome's free action and High Elf's seeinvis.
As for stat gain, just because you can take stat potions does not mean you should let your starting stats poop out. They are important in the early game still. If you can score two hits with a whip, it'll outprong one hit with a broad sword any day. If you don't try to make the most of starting stats, you'll pay with a weaker starting character and a lower chance of making it to dlevel 30 and those stat potions.
As for taking multiple hits, both strength and dexterity are factors, as well as weapon weight. Lighter weapons are easier to hit multiple times with. Currently, my rogue can take five hits with an executioner's sword - that's just 18/*** dex and 18/200 strength for you. In addition, dex has a big hand in multihits. More so than strength by far. Even as a brute physical class, you need dex just as bad as strength - possibly more so. Dex also has a significant effect on shooting, while strength has almost none. Strength is mainly for weight capacity, because its todam is not high until later on when you can take tons of blows, and it doesn't add hits for a while compared to dex... just my opinion since rogues live on dex.

Now that you've explained everything so well I feel really sorry for accidently getting that sentece wrong!

Anyway, never thought starting stats were THAT important as surviving to dlvl 30 isn't that hard... Surviving the very first levels can be tough as you don't have any escape items and without much to lose you (read: I) tend to take lots of risks and when it comes to late game I've mostly played Quickband and that game ends after Saruman but to me the Vanilla end game seems rather unforgiving... However, after getting past that "infant mortality" state, reaching level 30 isn't that hard... Of course, you could be get bored/impatient/risky and of course you could get unlucky and some baddie "commands you to return" and then have the rest of the goons in his room kill you in a split second, but generally, I get away with making stupid mistakes at those depths...