A fair way to nerf Zephyr Hounds?

[tummychow]

I know the hiding around a corner thing doesn't quite work anymore. However, I often don't have the patience or time to stone-to-mud a short safety corridor. Only one or two hounds can hit you anyway - one by breath, one by h2h attack. In addition, if you let the hounds into the room, the problem is mainly with you and not the hounds. That's the point with group monsters - you are *not* supposed to let that happen. That's why forcing breath to target the first enemy would nerf all breathers. The hounds aren't supposed to get into the room. A careful player can tangle with a group of hounds without incurring too much risk (excepting perhaps earth hounds, whose shard attacks can get pretty nasty if you let them stack up. Careful use of detect resolves that issue. Nexus hounds are just annoying with the teleport, not dangerous.). I only got close to being killed by hounds once. I never made the mistake of fighting them head on again.
I turn off the smart Ai for group monsters. They are really quite vicious with it on and I find life much easier without it. Just flip it off if the hounds are too much to handle.

[fizzix]

I'm not so sure it'd unfairly weaken them. If you were in a room full of hounds, you'd likely still have at *least* six or so able to breathe at you on any given round. I don't question the validity of luring hounds into a hallway and picking them off one at a time (or using a beam weapon if available), but I think there's a balance between enjoyment and challenge. Right now hounds are the only significant threat in the early/mid game until they are replaced/accompanied by G's. This is mostly due to the fact that they have devastating breath weapons, multiple physical attacks/round, never sleep, and utilize the best tactics of any creatures in the game.

I also wouldn't necessarily suggest the same change be made for dragons - though I would like to see their breath weapons act as beams instead of balls, thereby killing any thing without appropriate resist in between them and the @...but that's a different gripe

As you allude two there are two possible concerns with hounds.

1. they are too difficult.

2. they are too annoying.

Personally, I don't think hounds are too difficult either before or after pack AI became the standard. However, I do think that in both cases they are too annoying. A solution for me is one that either: 1) Makes hounds less numerous, reducing monotony. 2) Gives multiple new ways of dealing with hounds, including ways to use them to @'s benefit, thereby reducing monotony.

It's all about reducing monotony and getting back to what makes angband fun, randomly generated stuff and new challenges and places to explore on each level.

(tangentially, i think cones make a lot more sense for hounds and no sense for dragons. Probably because I think of a dragon as huge, towering over @ and likely everything else in the dungeon. The splash is not where the breath hits @, it's where the breath hits the floor underneath @.)

[Marble Dice]

Even ignoring the fact that it makes no sense for wild dogs or spiders to act like a platoon of elite soldiers,

Actually, it would (after all, instinct is merely genetically encoded learning).

After millions of years of evolution inside the dark confines of the Iron Hells, canis lupus zephyrous has evolved to exploit the unique geometry of the environment in their merciless pursuit of their staple prey. Join us on the Discovery Channel this week as we observe this marvelous species in its native habitat.

[Ghen]

Seconded - get rid of pack behavior for hounds/spiders etc, and then *apply* said behavior to kobolds, orcs, etc. It's always been funny to me that a chamber full of orcs led by a captain will patiently and obediently walk into my raging blender of death (often the captain even pushes past so he can die first!)...Yet mindless spiders and semi-intelligent hounds are 'brilliant' tacticians?

Good point, give the "smart" tag to the humanoids. And while you're at it, make more groups of kobolds.. right now the only groups I see come with a unique

[pampl]

Seconded - get rid of pack behavior for hounds/spiders etc, and then *apply* said behavior to kobolds, orcs, etc. It's always been funny to me that a chamber full of orcs led by a captain will patiently and obediently walk into my raging blender of death (often the captain even pushes past so he can die first!)...Yet mindless spiders and semi-intelligent hounds are 'brilliant' tacticians?

Well, yeah, it's supposed to be funny, like when Sam scared a fort full of orcs. They're *supposed* to be stupid tacticians that don't co-operate. Kobolds are lawful evil in DnD, and I think are semi-co-operative in original folklore (they're some kind of fairie/imp-type mining creature, like ugly mean-spirited gnomes, IIRC), so there's an argument for them being co-operative. Pack animals are pretty good tacticians, so IMO hounds shouldn't have their AI nerfed. I agree that mindless things shouldn't work together but aren't cave and Mirkwood spiders partially detected by telepathy?

I wouldn't really like any change that made hounds' breath significantly weaker. I do like the cone-style breath that some variants have that at least partially adresses the OP's needs- anything between the player and the hound, and sometimes even anything next to the player or behind him, is gonna eat hound breath too.

[Hariolor]

My vote would go to disabling the smart in group AI for hounds and for other non-intelligent monsters while we're at it.
Even ignoring the fact that it makes no sense for wild dogs or spiders to act like a platoon of elite soldiers,

Seconded - get rid of pack behavior for hounds/spiders etc, and then *apply* said behavior to kobolds, orcs, etc. It's always been funny to me that a chamber full of orcs led by a captain will patiently and obediently walk into my raging blender of death (often the captain even pushes past so he can die first!)...Yet mindless spiders and semi-intelligent hounds are 'brilliant' tacticians?

[Hariolor]

Zephyr hounds are very annoying. However, I think they add an important lesson for the character about handling enemy breath weapons. In addition, that would really cripple them. It would also cripple other 'breathers' such as dragons. You'd have to be in a 1v1 tango against a D for it to be able to use its breath effectively on you. *snip*
If you could only be breathed on by one hound at a time, it would rather defeat the purpose of them coming in groups. Maybe just making the groups smaller or less common would be a much better idea, as fizzix suggested. (Rather than jackal-swarm numbers, how about 5-6?)

I'm not so sure it'd unfairly weaken them. If you were in a room full of hounds, you'd likely still have at *least* six or so able to breathe at you on any given round. I don't question the validity of luring hounds into a hallway and picking them off one at a time (or using a beam weapon if available), but I think there's a balance between enjoyment and challenge. Right now hounds are the only significant threat in the early/mid game until they are replaced/accompanied by G's. This is mostly due to the fact that they have devastating breath weapons, multiple physical attacks/round, never sleep, and utilize the best tactics of any creatures in the game.

I also wouldn't necessarily suggest the same change be made for dragons - though I would like to see their breath weapons act as beams instead of balls, thereby killing any thing without appropriate resist in between them and the @...but that's a different gripe

[zaimoni]

My vote would go to disabling the smart in group AI for hounds and for other non-intelligent monsters while we're at it.

It's a birth option. Nothing's preventing your turning it off when starting a game.

Note that pack AI doesn't affect passwall/killwall packs (the pathfinding never gets that far).

Even ignoring the fact that it makes no sense for wild dogs or spiders to act like a platoon of elite soldiers,

Actually, it would (after all, instinct is merely genetically encoded learning). What matters is playability, not realism.

First, get an AI that acts like an elite soldier in V. Then we can see whether hounds are playable with that AI.

This doesn't work anymore does it? Hounds won't walk into ASC because of the group AI

Even with pack AI enabled, they will if you're under 50% health and aren't otherwise intimidated by the monster fear calculation.

[Matthias]

I don't like this. It changes the problem of hounds back to what it was. If you disable the group AI it becomes, detect hounds, hide behind corner, kill them individually. Repeat, repeat, repeat, fall asleep, repeat, repeat.

That's the thing, I don't think there was a problem with hounds before the change. You had a choice to attack them, using a simple strategy for a useful reward (exp), or you could ignore them. Now you can only ignore them. If you believe they were too easy, there are other ways to change that while keeping them as targets. The strategy is only dead simple if you can kill them in one turn (two turns using LOS abuse). So give them +5 base speed, or +10 if you like, double their armor. Or implement stochastic energy

edit:

6) Wait in a room, close to a hallway, and hockey stick them again (this might be the one tummychow was suggesting):

#########
######...
ZZ.Z.Z...
######...
######@..
######...

I like that one. While I'd consider it an error of the group AI (just like #2), it is certainly an improvement of the older case in situations where you need two or more attacks as you'll be semi swarmed more easily.

[Marble Dice]

I don't see how the current strategy is any less repetitive than the old "grab any corner you can find and settle in for a while" one. Currently you can:

1) Try to ignore them, and be careful about stepping into rooms.
2) If they're in a room, hide in a hallway, and snipe them with arrows or ball spells as they cross your line of sight.
3) Step into and out of the room they inhabit from a corridor, trading breaths for a turn or two of ranged/melee attacks.
4) If you're both in corridors, turn another corner so they'll come up into the hall you were just in, and pop back around the corner to hit them before they run away again.
5) Get low on life to trigger the old behavior, and ASC or hockey stick 'em.
6) Wait in a room, close to a hallway, and hockey stick them again (this might be the one tummychow was suggesting):

#########
######...
ZZ.Z.Z...
######...
######@..
######...

[fizzix]

My vote would go to disabling the smart in group AI for hounds and for other non-intelligent monsters while we're at it.
Even ignoring the fact that it makes no sense for wild dogs or spiders to act like a platoon of elite soldiers, the only thing the current implementation achieves is that hounds are added to the ever growing list of monsters you shouldn't attack. Without the group AI, a character ready for his current level (a non-diver) could attack most hounds with proper planning while risking some of his equipment if the planning went wrong. I think we should encourage somewhat risky fights instead of forcing everyone to run away.

I don't like this. It changes the problem of hounds back to what it was. If you disable the group AI it becomes, detect hounds, hide behind corner, kill them individually. Repeat, repeat, repeat, fall asleep, repeat, repeat.

To me, the main problem with the hounds is that dealing with them becomes very repetitive and boring. Since there's so many of them and they're on every level, unless I'm a mage and can banish them, it's a guarantee that there will be hounds on any level lower than 20 or so. Either reduce the frequency so that about 50% of the levels have no hounds, or reduce the pack sizes so that I don't feel like about 35-40% of my game time is spent dealing with hounds. (or you can...make them get bored and leave the level if they don't see @ for a while, or let them fall asleep, or lower the detection radius significantly etc etc.)

[buzzkill]

I'll go in the other direction on this one. If you take away their smart-AI so they'll charge down the corridor at you like a pack of hounds, then give them a boost of speed, so they can charge down the corridor at you, and catch you, like a pack of hounds.

[Matthias]

My vote would go to disabling the smart in group AI for hounds and for other non-intelligent monsters while we're at it.
Even ignoring the fact that it makes no sense for wild dogs or spiders to act like a platoon of elite soldiers, the only thing the current implementation achieves is that hounds are added to the ever growing list of monsters you shouldn't attack. Without the group AI, a character ready for his current level (a non-diver) could attack most hounds with proper planning while risking some of his equipment if the planning went wrong. I think we should encourage somewhat risky fights instead of forcing everyone to run away.

Besides, with some prudence hounds can easily be handled. Waiting on the side of a hallway full of hounds is a great idea, and it encourages the careful use of detect spells (for those of us that have them coughroguecough). Antisummons corridors are a near necessity later on anyway.

This doesn't work anymore does it? Hounds won't walk into ASC because of the group AI

[tummychow]

Zephyr hounds are very annoying. However, I think they add an important lesson for the character about handling enemy breath weapons. In addition, that would really cripple them. It would also cripple other 'breathers' such as dragons. You'd have to be in a 1v1 tango against a D for it to be able to use its breath effectively on you. Besides, with some prudence hounds can easily be handled. Waiting on the side of a hallway full of hounds is a great idea, and it encourages the careful use of detect spells (for those of us that have them coughroguecough). Antisummons corridors are a near necessity later on anyway.
If you could only be breathed on by one hound at a time, it would rather defeat the purpose of them coming in groups. Maybe just making the groups smaller or less common would be a much better idea, as fizzix suggested. (Rather than jackal-swarm numbers, how about 5-6?)

[fizzix]

I like this idea also. I would also approve of making hounds more rare or making pack sizes significantly smaller. I think hounds the way they are add the 'wrong' kind of difficulty to the game.