Progress Report

[Cauldron]

So, I'm trying what I think of as the *dive dive dive* strategy, with my little High-Elf Mage. I have Free action from a ring, armor of resistance, and boots of stealth, so I figure I'm ok for level 20-40 of the dungeon. I'm practicing the running to the stairs down, then looking for any interesting items; but, since this is a new tactic for me, I forget sometimes, and wander far from the stairs killing stuff.

This will be fatal as I dove deeper, I know. Hence, the practice. So, I get to the down stairs, and I remember, hey detect objects! So I do. Then, looking around I see: a Longsword (4d5).

ClangClangClangClangClang!

So, here's the dump. I'm carrying around some stuff to sell, but I'll move on that prett soonand drop to stat-gain depth. This time I won't drop below 1950' until I have a bunch more hit points. I got netherbolted my last trip there.

  [Angband 3.1.0 beta Character Dump]

 Sex    Male         Age            124   STR:     17  +1  -5  +0     13
 Race   High-Elf     Height          95   INT:     17  +3  +3  +3  18/80
 Class  Mage         Weight         214   WIS:     10  -1  +0  +0      9
 Title  Spellbinder  Social      Lordly   DEX:     14  +3  +1  +0     18
 HP     68/132       Maximize         Y   CON:     12  +1  -2  +0     11
 SP     14/67                             CHR:     13  +5  +1  +0  18/10


 Level               22   Armor    [16,+22]     Saving Throw         70%
 Cur Exp          18341   Fight     (+2,+0)     Stealth           Superb
 Max Exp          18341   Melee   (+24,+25)     Fighting       Very Good
 Adv Exp          19320   Shoot    (+8,+15)     Shooting       Very Good
 MaxDepth   1150' (L23)   Blows      1/turn     Disarming            56%
 Turns           684866   Shots      1/turn     Magic Device      Heroic
 Gold              3833   Infra       80 ft     Perception       1 in 16
 Burden       114.9 lbs   Speed           8     Searching            19%

 You are one of several children of a Telerin Ranger.  You have light
 green eyes, straight blond hair, and a fair complexion.



 Acid:......+.+.... Confu:.............
 Elec:........+.... Sound:.............
 Fire:........+.... Shard:.............
 Cold:+.......+.... Nexus:.............
 Pois:............. Nethr:.............
 Fear:+............ Chaos:.............
 Lite:+...........+ Disen:.............
 Dark:............. S.Dig:+............
Blind:............. Feath:.............

PLite:+............ Aggrv:.............
Regen:+............ Stea.:...........+.
Telep:............. Sear.:.............
Invis:+...........+ Infra:....+....+..+
FrAct:+.+.......... Tunn.:.............
HLife:............. Speed:+............
ImpHP:............. Blows:.............
ImpSP:............. Shots:.............
 Fear:............. Might:.............


  [Character Equipment]

a) The Long Sword 'Ringil' (4d5) (+22,+25) (+10 speed)
     +10 speed.
     Provides resistance to cold, fear, light.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Blessed by the gods.
     Slows your metabolism.
     Speeds regeneration.
     Prevents paralysis.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.
     When activated, it creates a frost ball with damage 100.
     It takes 40 turns to recharge after use.
     Radius 1 light.
     With this weapon, you would currently get 1 blow per round,
     averaging a damage of 49 against evil creatures, 61 against
     trolls, 61 against undead, 61 against frost-vulnerable creatures, 
     85 against demons, and 37 against normal creatures.
b) a Long Bow of Power (x3) (+6,+15)
c) an Onyx Ring of Free Action
     Prevents paralysis.
d) a Topaz Ring of Intelligence (+3)
     +3 intelligence.
     Sustains intelligence.
e) a Golden Amulet of Infravision (+2)
     +2 infravision.
f) a Lantern (12664 turns)
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     Radius 2 light.
g) Studded Leather Armour of Resist Acid (-1) [6,+3]
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
h) (nothing)
i) a Wicker Shield of Resistance [2,+15]
     Provides resistance to acid, lightning, fire, cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
j) an Iron Helm of Infravision [5,+1] (+2)
     +2 infravision.
k) (nothing)
l) a Pair of Iron Shod Boots of Stealth [3,+1] (+3)
     +3 stealth.


  [Character Inventory]

a) a Book of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] {@m1}
b) a Book of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks] {@m2}
c) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Incantations and Illusions] {@m3}
d) a Book of Magic Spells [Sorcery and Evocations] {@m4}
e) 4 Flasks of oil
f) 9 Crimson Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
g) a Cyan Potion of Enlightenment
h) a Metallic Purple Potion of Berserk Strength
i) 2 White Potions of True Seeing
j) 7 Scrolls titled "natrum parudis" of Phase Door
k) 6 Scrolls titled "etreter exto" of Word of Recall
l) 3 Nickel-Plated Rods of Treasure Location {@z1}
m) a Cast Iron Rod of Light
n) 2 Cast Iron Wands of Lightning Bolts (17 charges)
o) a Nickel Wand of Sleep Monster (21 charges)
p) an Ivory Wand of Teleport Other (10 charges)
q) an Ironwood Staff of Slow Monsters (7 charges)
r) a Gnarled Staff of Mapping (3 charges)
s) a Silver Ring of Strength (+2)
     +2 strength.
     Sustains strength.
t) a Topaz Ring of Intelligence (+1)
     +1 intelligence.
     Sustains intelligence.
u) a Beryl Ring of the Mouse (+0,-12) (+4)
     +4 dexterity.
v) a Tulwar of Slay Orc (2d4) (+6,+4)
     With this weapon, you would currently get 1 blow per round,
     averaging a damage of 19 against orcs, and 9 against normal
     creatures.
w) 32 Arrows (1d4) (+4,+4)
     Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit targets
     up to 120 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 64.5 against
     normal creatures.
     35% chance of breaking upon contact.


  [Home Inventory]

a) 3 Books of Magic Spells [Magic for Beginners] {@m1}
b) 2 Books of Magic Spells [Conjurings and Tricks] {@m2}
c) a Green Mushroom of Vigor
     When ingested, it restores all your stats.
     Provides nourishment for about 250 turns under normal conditions.
d) 2 Light Green Mushrooms of Clear Mind
     When ingested, it cures confusion and hallucination, removes fear 
     and grants you temporary resistance to confusion.
     Provides nourishment for about 250 turns under normal conditions.
e) 9 Crimson Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
     When ingested, it heals you a large amount (1/4 of your wounds, mi
     nimum 30HP), heals cut damage, and cures stunning, poisoning, blin
     dness, and confusion.
     Provides nourishment for about 75 turns under normal conditions.
f) a Metallic Purple Potion of Berserk Strength
     When ingested, it restores 30 hit points, removes fear and grants 
     you resistance to fear, +12 to-hit, and -10AC for 1d25+25 turns.
g) a Yellow Speckled Potion of Resist Poison
     When ingested, it grants temporary resistance to poison for 1d10+1
     0 turns.
h) a Pair of Leather Boots of Stability [2,+3]
     Provides resistance to nexus.
     Feather Falling.
     
i) a Scimitar of Slay Giant (4d2) (+8,+4)
     With this weapon, you would currently get 1 blow per round,
     averaging a damage of 22 against giants, and 10 against normal
     creatures.
j) a Lucerne Hammer of Slay Undead (2d5) (+5,+7)
     With this weapon, you would currently get 1 blow per round,
     averaging a damage of 25 against undead, and 13 against normal
     creatures.
k) a Light Crossbow (x3) (+5,+5)
l) 18 Bolts (1d5) (+5,+5)
m) 31 Arrows (1d4) (+0,+0) {@f1}
     Fired from your current missile launcher, this arrow will hit targets
     up to 120 feet away, inflicting an average damage of 52.5 against
     normal creatures.
     35% chance of breaking upon contact.


  [Options]

Maximize effect of race/class bonuses        : yes (adult_maximize)
Randomize some of the artifacts (beta)       : no  (adult_randarts)
Restrict the use of stairs/recall            : no  (adult_ironman)
Restrict the use of stores/home              : no  (adult_no_stores)
Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (adult_no_artifacts)
Don't stack objects on the floor             : no  (adult_no_stacking)
Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (adult_no_preserve)
Don't generate connected stairs              : no  (adult_no_stairs)
Adult: Monsters chase current location       : yes (adult_ai_sound)
Adult: Monsters chase recent locations       : yes (adult_ai_smell)
Adult: Monsters act smarter in groups        : yes (adult_ai_packs)
Adult: Monsters learn from their mistakes    : no  (adult_ai_learn)
Adult: Monsters exploit players weaknesses   : no  (adult_ai_cheat)
Adult: Monsters behave more intelligently (broken): no  (adult_ai_smart)
Score: Peek into object creation             : no  (score_peek)
Score: Peek into monster creation            : no  (score_hear)
Score: Peek into dungeon creation            : no  (score_room)
Score: Peek into something else              : no  (score_xtra)
Score: Know complete monster info            : no  (score_know)
Score: Allow player to avoid death           : no  (score_live)

[Miles]

Oh man I am jealous. My last char, I was bumming around floors 900' and 950' forever and after about the 1M turn mark the best thing I found were some boots of speed+8. Granted, that's a really good drop from a priest, but nary an artifact turned up. No resists, no free action. That lack of free action got to me when a Druid paralized me and a Ranger summoned up a Carrion Crawler to finish the job.

Freaking A.

Good luck on your character though. With Ringil, I'm sure things will be a little bit easier than your standard Mage file.

[Pete Mack]

@Miles -- that particular death is not a stupid death; it's just the odds catching up to you. If you mess around long enough with some vulnerability, you will eventually get killed. Rings of Free Action are native to 1000', so your chances of finding one at 950' are something like 20x lower than one level deeper, but your odds of meeting a dangerous out of depth monster are essentially the same.

You would have survived, if you'd explored just one level deeper. (Or if you crash dived to 1500' and found a better source there.)

[Donald Jonker]

@Miles -- that particular death is not a stupid death; it's just the odds catching up to you. If you mess around long enough with some vulnerability, you will eventually get killed. Rings of Free Action are native to 1000', so your chances of finding one at 950' are something like 20x lower than one level deeper, but your odds of meeting a dangerous out of depth monster are essentially the same.

You would have survived, if you'd explored just one level deeper. (Or if you crash dived to 1500' and found a better source there.)

Sometimes I do wonder about the wisdom of putting the native depths of resistances deeper than that at which they're necessary. Diving is fun and all, but you really couldn't make a more counter-intuitive system if you tried. You might as well put a sign on the splash page before character creation indicating this.

You wouldn't want to make it too easy to get resistances, of course. If you decreased their native depths, maybe increase out-of-depth monster generation to compensate.

Dunno - thinking out loud.

[Miles]

Yeah, I was going to try some bold dives this time around. I rolled a Hobbit Priest, and Priest is my least used class. This should be interesting. So would I be safe in assuming that if I'm extra careful in messing around under 1000', I should find better drops than above 1000'?

[Donald Jonker]

Yeah, I was going to try some bold dives this time around. I rolled a Hobbit Priest, and Priest is my least used class. This should be interesting. So would I be safe in assuming that if I'm extra careful in messing around under 1000', I should find better drops than above 1000'?

Yup. Just make sure to _dEvil often. You'll be surprised at how far you can make it without FA. It only really becomes dangerous ~2000' and beyond, when so many things paralyze that you forget which is which (e.g. you'll ask yourself, "Is it Ogre Mages or Ogre Shamans?" edit: it's both ). That's the real benefit to having a good monster memory.

I don't know when the hard limit for a dEvil char w/o FA would be. Whenever non-evil non-melee paralyzers show up, if there are any. I've made it past 3000' more than once.

[Miles]

Alright. One more question and I think I can dive in confidence. Would you say that it's every 500' or 1000' feet that the quality of the native items increase?

I feel like I'm hijacking OP's thread, too.

[Cauldron]

I feel like I'm hijacking OP's thread, too.

Don;t worry about it, it's a conversation, not an essay.

Further: diving. We keep talking about drops, but actually, we're talking about items on the floor for the most part. The deeper you are from your level, the less likely you are to be able to take the natives to that depth. Also, the loger you stay on a level, the more critters are generated, and they tend to be generated closer to the native depth than the monsters generated with the level.

At least, that's my impression.

[will_asher]

Sometimes I do wonder about the wisdom of putting the native depths of resistances deeper than that at which they're necessary.

It would make perfect sense if no one kept track of any certain level when something becomes 'necessary'. Then people would just keep going and often find what they need before they die if they're careful. (not that I'm ever careful enough..)

I always thought it was silly in vanilla that so many monsters past dl40 are invisible when everyone has SI by that time, so no one even notices that the monsters are invisibile. The crazy divers are an exception and I think this is part of what makes diving fun because if you don't have the resistances or SI or stuff like that, then the monsters' magic abilities actually make a difference.
If you always have all the resistances before they're needed, then who cares what the monsters can do? It robs the game of some of its flavor.

[Atarlost]

On the other hand the fact that some things are considered neccessities by many people may indicate that the monster abilities they counter are unfun, at least for some segments of the player base.

[Pete Mack]

Alright. One more question and I think I can dive in confidence. Would you say that it's every 500' or 1000' feet that the quality of the native items increase?

It depends. If you look at artifacts.txt and objects.txt, there are huge improvements in drops at those levels. The 0 mod 10 levels are best, with a few exceptions like dl 30(!).

In any case, 1000' is mostly safe if you have detect evil or detect monsters. The first non-evil monsters that paralyze are the carrion crawler (dl 25) and the gorgimaera (dl 27).

A few points:
(1) The levels between 1000' and 1500' are a pain because they are dominated by hounds; getting through them quickly will save a lot of aggravation.

(2) Rods of Light and a source of room illumination make a huge difference if you don't have FA.

Appendix: Object frequencies
In the following, the count is 1st, the level is 2nd:

$ grep ^W: object.txt | cut -f2 -d: | sort -n | uniq -c
41 0
25 1
21 3
44 5
41 10
22 15
26 20
13 25
34 30
7 35
21 40
1 44
10 45
36 50
5 55
16 60
6 65
17 70
5 75
8 80
2 90
2 95
3 100

$ grep ^W: artifact.txt | cut -f2 -d: | sort -n | uniq -c
3 4
7 5
11 10
7 15
1 18
33 20
3 25
20 30
1 35
16 40
1 45
5 50
3 55
5 60
3 65
5 70
2 75
2 80
2 90
1 95
4 100

[Miles]

Alright. That's some good information there. Thanks. And with my old Half-troll warrior, I know how Hounds will hound my poor little @. If I see one more Z...

As for the necessities issue, it doesn't bother me too much. I love grinding. But now I know I shouldn't worry too much about the level recs with my style. And with warriors, I always keep at least four rods on me.

[Donald Jonker]

On the other hand the fact that some things are considered neccessities by many people may indicate that the monster abilities they counter are unfun, at least for some segments of the player base.

The problem is that Angband's "necessary" resistance depths deal w/ the prevention of instadeath. And that's a big problem. Only reason we let it stand is that it's avoidable via detect+evade. If that weren't the case I'd say it'd be a long time since either native depths were revised, or the whole notion of unresisted permadeath as a possibility would have been overhauled. That's why you've got distinct camps of divers plunging forth, novices dying at breakpoints and scratching their heads, and a tiny group of people who somehow manage to forge ahead slowly and still manage to win (who have me completely baffled). Maybe detect+evade is too big a part of the game.

I'm not entirely convinced that unresisted breaths should mean permadeath for every character. Tiptoeing around wyrms when you lack the pertinent resistance does give a certain rush, but you could put a cap on that to prevent it from being game-ending. Leave 1 hp, say. Would that make the game too easy? Maybe it would. Meh. It's late and I need to ponder more.

I feel like I'm hijacking OP's thread, too.

*Now* we've hijacked it.

[Miles]

*Now* we've hijacked it.

Haha, poor OP. Personally, I love the thought of instadeath if you're not careful. I was too slow in whipping out my wand of Teleport Other in the fatal Greater Vault in my Half Troll file and I got my face et by Smaug. Wasn't pretty, but now I know I should stay away from vaults when there are enemies 35 levels OoD. At least until I'm better at this diving thing.

I just wish I could have won Angband without spoilers. Guess that's out the window. Shoot, considering I've never made it past Dlvl 50...

[Pete Mack]

The problem is that Angband's "necessary" resistance depths deal w/ the prevention of instadeath. And that's a big problem. Only reason we let it stand is that it's avoidable via detect+evade. If that weren't the case I'd say it'd be a long time since either native depths were revised, or the whole notion of unresisted permadeath as a possibility would have been overhauled. That's why you've got distinct camps of divers plunging forth, novices dying at breakpoints and scratching their heads, and a tiny group of people who somehow manage to forge ahead slowly and still manage to win (who have me completely baffled). Maybe detect+evade is too big a part of the game.

I dunno. I lost consistently for 1/2 year of pretty heavy playing, because I ran across "the arch-mage's tale" before I read "tales of the bold".

It wasn't until I started distinguishing between "evasion" and "escape" that I made any significant progress. All things considered, that's a good thing. It's what keeps gameplay interesting in an ASCII turn-based game, as compared to a FPS.