Shopkeeper shuffling

[Marble Dice]

So game designers should design with source-scummers in mind??

If the novelty of your game (or mini-game or mechanic) is based only a lack of understanding of the mechanical implementation, then once players understand how it works, there's no game left. Source diving isn't the only way to master a mechanic - it just happens to be the easiest and the fastest. Granted, the process of discovery and research can be entertaining too, but if that's all your game has going for it, then it's not very deep. Angband is a challenging and entertaining game even with complete knowledge of the implementation (the source), because there is a rich and varied meta game that arises from the base mechanics.

Haggling *is* pointless because it's just an algorithm. Even if it were a randomized algorithm, there's no meaning there. The only way a haggling system would be a worthwhile game mechanic was if it was a full-fledged mini-game, not just "hey guess the number that will give you the most value for the least anger this round." Something where you could compliment, bribe, or threaten, modified by your characters abilities and stats, that takes the demographic properties of the shopkeeper and the player into consideration, where the history of that relationship is important, and recent events can influence the optimal strategy during any given interaction. That doesn't sound like a mini-game I'd like to play, but anything less is just self-serving execution of stale knowledge - guess 25% of the estimated value of the item, then increase it by 5% each round until the ideal price is reached (or whatever, I'm glad I don't remember this algorithm anymore).

So, yes, game designers should make games that will still be interesting and fun to play when the players have "mastered" those games - one way to do this is to force the player to make decisions that involve trade-offs and occasionally incomplete knowledge. Haggling was a very poor implementation of this philosophy.

I do miss those insults, though.

[Magnate]

If the novelty of your game (or mini-game or mechanic) is based only a lack of understanding of the mechanical implementation, then once players understand how it works, there's no game left. Source diving isn't the only way to master a mechanic - it just happens to be the easiest and the fastest. Granted, the process of discovery and research can be entertaining too, but if that's all your game has going for it, then it's not very deep. Angband is a challenging and entertaining game even with complete knowledge of the implementation (the source), because there is a rich and varied meta game that arises from the base mechanics.

Haggling *is* pointless because it's just an algorithm. Even if it were a randomized algorithm, there's no meaning there. The only way a haggling system would be a worthwhile game mechanic was if it was a full-fledged mini-game, not just "hey guess the number that will give you the most value for the least anger this round." Something where you could compliment, bribe, or threaten, modified by your characters abilities and stats, that takes the demographic properties of the shopkeeper and the player into consideration, where the history of that relationship is important, and recent events can influence the optimal strategy during any given interaction. That doesn't sound like a mini-game I'd like to play, but anything less is just self-serving execution of stale knowledge - guess 25% of the estimated value of the item, then increase it by 5% each round until the ideal price is reached (or whatever, I'm glad I don't remember this algorithm anymore).

So, yes, game designers should make games that will still be interesting and fun to play when the players have "mastered" those games - one way to do this is to force the player to make decisions that involve trade-offs and occasionally incomplete knowledge. Haggling was a very poor implementation of this philosophy.

I do miss those insults, though.

I don't disagree with you, but I'm curious to know whether you've tried Sangband. I may not have written my previous post very well, but IMO Leon has gone quite a long way towards the full-fledged minigame you're talking about. It doesn't have everything you mention, but it has most of it. Sure, it's still just a minigame, but of course that's all it ever can be. IMO the tedium is greatly relieved by only having to haggle once for any given item.

[Marble Dice]

I haven't tried Sang, no. It does sound like it's head-and-shoulders above the old V system, but even still... I'd rather get back to the dungeon to find new loot, instead of wasting time in town.