Shopkeeper shuffling

[ClaytonAguiar]

Hi,

Did have any change on shopkeeper shuffling or "funds"? The weapon store of my current game has a limit of 5000 gp for puchases. I played a lot (from clvl 1 to 20) and it's still the same.

Will it ever change some day? I'd like to sell some *slay* and blessed weapons for more than 5K gp, as I know their price are much greater than that

Thanks in advance for any information or clarification.

[Marble Dice]

Yes, shops will still change ownership sometimes, in one of two ways:

1) Every time you buy out a shop, there is a 1/25 chance the shopkeeper will retire and someone else will take over.

2) Every 10,000 game turns (1,000 player turns at normal speed), there is also a 1/25 chance that a random shop (the weapon shop being 1/7) will change ownership. So if you want the weapon shop to change owners, there is a 1/175 (0.57%) chance for that to happen every 10,000 game turns.

In the mean time, if the weapons are especially valuable, you can try selling them at the black market. You might be able to get more than the weaponsmith will pay, even with the black market's crummy rates.

[Zikke]

Thank you for posting that math, Marble. I never knew what governed those shopkeepers. In all of the V3.1 games I have played (about 5 to end-game levels) I have never once had the weapon vendor change out. Guess it's just luck.

[Rizwan]

Yes, shops will still change ownership sometimes, in one of two ways:

1) Every time you buy out a shop, there is a 1/25 chance the shopkeeper will retire and someone else will take over.

2) Every 10,000 game turns (1,000 player turns at normal speed), there is also a 1/25 chance that a random shop (the weapon shop being 1/7) will change ownership. So if you want the weapon shop to change owners, there is a 1/175 (0.57%) chance for that to happen every 10,000 game turns.

I think there needs to be a guaranteed change of all shopkeepers after every certain number of turns. As it is the chances of shopkeepers changing is too low. You get stuck with a shopkeeper for your whole game. I usually end up re-rolling characters until I get a shopkeeper with a higher payout which is a pain.

[buzzkill]

I think there needs to be a guaranteed change of all shopkeepers after every certain number of turns. As it is the chances of shopkeepers changing is too low. You get stuck with a shopkeeper for your whole game. I usually end up re-rolling characters until I get a shopkeeper with a higher payout which is a pain.

That's a double edged sword you're playing with. Under your new regime, the high quality starting shopkeep that you start-scum for may change to a cheapskate after you've invested your real-life time into a given character.

IMO, this shouldn't be a game-breaker for anyone, just lessen your dependence on the shops or adopt a variant which is more shopping focused. Gold is already too abundant. In my perfect world, I'd try and find a way to limit selling further.

[Atarlost]

What if you could, say, murder the offending shopkeeper and then get banned from town for x turns where x is a large enough number to be a royal pain but not large enough to completely ruin your game? Then after that interval the dead shopkeeper is replaced and you can hopefully get better sale prices on all the stuff in your warehouse.

[Bandobras]

What if you could, say, murder the offending shopkeeper and then get banned from town for x turns where x is a large enough number to be a royal pain but not large enough to completely ruin your game? Then after that interval the dead shopkeeper is replaced and you can hopefully get better sale prices on all the stuff in your warehouse.

Yeah. Or a boring quest of whatever kind to change shopkeepers. It's still much less boring than scumming and non-shop-obsessive players will ignore the quests (or take them because they like quests and are curious what new stock the new shopkeeper brings).

[Colbey]

Do people really like the flavor of having different shopkeepers? I'd almost rather there just be one for each store. I mean, there can be a random name or race, but as far as race modifiers (if those still exist) or maximum prices go, why not just have one? Then we only have to argue about the single maximum price for each store...

[Bandobras]

Do people really like the flavor of having different shopkeepers? I'd almost rather there just be one for each store. I mean, there can be a random name or race, but as far as race modifiers (if those still exist) or maximum prices go, why not just have one? Then we only have to argue about the single maximum price for each store...

I think it's already done so in one of the major classical variants (V, O, S?). Just flavour, no mechanics. As much as I'm a fan of mechanics, I didn't miss haggling mechanics (though I miss those wonderful haggling messages) and I won't miss varied price roofs.

[Atarlost]

That'd be much more fair. Either that or introduce a birth_autoscum_shopkeepers_are_not_lame option.

[Marble Dice]

I think it's already done so in one of the major classical variants (V, O, S?). Just flavour, no mechanics. As much as I'm a fan of mechanics, I didn't miss haggling mechanics (though I miss those wonderful haggling messages) and I won't miss varied price roofs.

Oh man, I had forgotten about haggling! May the fleas of 1,000 orcs molest you! Yeah totally, RIP unnecessary, tedious, and game-flow interrupting mechanic which yielded a marginal game-play advantage. Hey, wait a minute...

[Magnate]

Oh man, I had forgotten about haggling! May the fleas of 1,000 orcs molest you! Yeah totally, RIP unnecessary, tedious, and game-flow interrupting mechanic which yielded a marginal game-play advantage. Hey, wait a minute...

Try Sangband - Leon made it so that haggling is actually worthwhile. You only haggle for consumables once - as long as you get to the minimum price, the storekeeper doesn't ask you to haggle again, and just gives it to you for that price in future. The more consistently you haggle well, the better the storekeeper likes you, and stocks better stuff. It's really pretty good - admittedly I can live without haggling, but I think Sang makes it about as entertaining and useful as it can be.

[Rizwan]

That's a double edged sword you're playing with. Under your new regime, the high quality starting shopkeep that you start-scum for may change to a cheapskate after you've invested your real-life time into a given character.

True but in all the hundreds of games I have played I really have not lived to the point where the storekeeper DOES change. On the other hand the RNG just might zap me for the heck of it

IMO, this shouldn't be a game-breaker for anyone, just lessen your dependence on the shops or adopt a variant which is more shopping focused. Gold is already too abundant. In my perfect world, I'd try and find a way to limit selling further.

Again true but the thing about the gold is that when you need it you don't have it and when you have it you don't need it
In the early game it is essential to get as much money for value as possible.

What if you could, say, murder the offendingshopkeeper and then get banned from town for x turns where x is a largeenough number to be a royal pain but not large enough to completelyruin your game? Then after that interval the dead shopkeeper isreplaced and you can hopefully get better sale prices on all the stuffin your warehouse.

That would be nice
Although forcing storekeeper change after set amount of turns could help in the store buyout button discussion going on here.

[Pete Mack]

Try Sangband - Leon made it so that haggling is actually worthwhile. You only haggle for consumables once - as long as you get to the minimum price, the storekeeper doesn't ask you to haggle again, and just gives it to you for that price in future. The more consistently you haggle well, the better the storekeeper likes you, and stocks better stuff. It's really pretty good - admittedly I can live without haggling, but I think Sang makes it about as entertaining and useful as it can be.

The trouble with this is that haggling is an algorithm. If you source scum and discover the (deterministic!) algorithm, or just find it by careful trial and error, you can make friends with the shopkeeper every time. So it ends up being an adventure-style puzzle rather than genuine randomized game-play.

[Magnate]

The trouble with this is that haggling is an algorithm. If you source scum and discover the (deterministic!) algorithm, or just find it by careful trial and error, you can make friends with the shopkeeper every time. So it ends up being an adventure-style puzzle rather than genuine randomized game-play.

So game designers should design with source-scummers in mind??