Change request: jelly pits

[Magnate]

I don't mind jelly pits - I'm not asking for them to be removed.

I'm just asking for them to stop causing superb/special level feelings.

Please. Stop m/i/j adding to level feelings at all.

(I'd go so far as to say that all monsters without drops should not contribute to level feelings, but I'll settle for jelly pits.)

[Donald Jonker]

Seconded.

I'd also like them to be removed, however. They're pure annoyance and don't teach any valuable gameplay lessons. All risk, no reward (not even hounds can boast that). Plenty of other ways to learn avoidance. They only function as traps for newbies who think that maybe there's an artifact in there. Removing the feeling would help, but it's still confusing - otherwise why would such phenomena exist?

[Marble Dice]

What's not superb about a giant room full of enemies with way too many hp, no drops, terrible experience, shriekers, mana drainers, and disastrous melee attacks?

The pits don't bother me of course, because short of teleporting right next to them, you can just avoid them. You might get a few stragglers leaking out depending on depth and spawn placement, but that's it.

I do agree it'd be nice if they didn't contribute to level feelings. I always thought jelly pits were one of the RNG's many ways of making me feel stupid for getting my hopes up.

They're pure annoyance and don't teach any valuable gameplay lessons. All risk, no reward (not even hounds can boast that).

Man, I would invite jelly pits to my birthday parties if it meant I didn't have to see zephyr hounds on the way to the down stairs.

[azfalt]

I'm confused by level feelings in general, as they rarely seem to correlate with level quality, other than that "superb" usually means some sort of vault.

I had a game a few months where I found the warhammer of Aule lying on the floor in the mid-2000's, with only a "good feeling", and I've found other artifact drops or dungeon books at relatively shallow depths without correspondingly good level feelings. Almost makes me miss the days of "special feeling" without preserve mode...

I ignore all level feelings now except for "superb" and just rely on detection.

[Colbey]

Actually, when I was a beginning player, I found jelly pits more useful than anything else in teaching me that I don't need to kill everything.

First jelly pit I ever saw, I tried to kill everything, because it looked exciting. I died. Second or third or fourth jelly pit, I wanted revenge, so I spent like a half hour carefully clearing it out. Success! ...and nothing to show for it except a kit of armor with a bunch of acid-lined holes all over it. Never again.

[Magnate]

Man, I would invite jelly pits to my birthday parties if it meant I didn't have to see zephyr hounds on the way to the down stairs.

I hear you, but I think we already lost the hound debate and they're staying unchanged. (I don't mind, because my handy hound-rarity.diff solves the problem at a stroke - let me know if you want a copy.)

I think I agree with azfalt - level feelings need a re-think anyway. They have the same problem as AC, in that they're supposed to represent two very different things: risk and reward for level feelings, evasion and absorption for AC. Maybe the "good" level which had Aule lying on the floor had very few OoD monsters on it.

One solution is to make level feelings have two components, e.g.:

"The air is thick with danger, but the floor seems bare."

"You have a mild sense of unease, but there is much to see."

"You tremble in fear, and wade through piles of treasure!"

"You yawn with boredom, and see nothing interesting."

Etc.

[PaulBlay]

One solution is to make level feelings have two components, e.g.:

Or just ditch the monster component entirely.

[bebo]

One solution is to make level feelings have two components

I'm totally in favor of this, it would be a huge improvement

[Donald Jonker]

I think I agree with azfalt - level feelings need a re-think anyway. They have the same problem as AC, in that they're supposed to represent two very different things: risk and reward for level feelings, evasion and absorption for AC. Maybe the "good" level which had Aule lying on the floor had very few OoD monsters on it.

One solution is to make level feelings have two components,

Problematically, in an ideal situation risk and reward are supposed to increase in tandem. Splitting the level feelings would mean open season for level scumming again - waiting only for those floors on which the gains outweighed the danger faced to obtain them. These shouldn't be separate.

To some extent they still wouldn't be - players would know that a level feeling-generating unique would be likely to drop some good items. But I doubt under the new scheme they would bother sticking around for it.

The reason we're even discussing it is that jellies offer no reward, so we don't want them to contribute to a "good" feeling. So the challenge should be that every risk in the dungeon should bring some reward. Then level feelings can remain as they are. Consistency.

[Pete Mack]

There seems to be a belief here that angband has anything to do with 'fairness'. In my play, I see little evidence of this, and yet I keep coming back to try again. Coincidence, or causality?

Anyway, Troll pits around 1300' have the same effect. A "superb" feel, and all for a bunch of trolls who won't drop stat potions.

If you get a bit deeper, jelly pits won't cause level feelings to change anyway. One more reason not to muck about before reaching stat gain.

[Marble Dice]

Level feeling is based on nests, pits, vaults, ood monsters, and objects.

1. Nests are either jelly, animal, or undead. Avoid like the plague IMO.
2. Pits are a potential windfall, as they sport enemies with drops, but there's usually some risk involved.
3. Vaults invariably are high risk high reward.
4. OOD Monsters may or may not have xp or drops, and may or may not be a serious threat.
5. Objects are good.

In that light, a level's rating is made up of things with are all risk/no reward, things which are low risk/reward, things which are high risk/reward, things which may or may not be risky or worth it, and things which are no risk/all reward. So then I take level feeling to mean "there is something to watch out for here" either in the form of needless risk, easy reward, or a potential payoff for those careful enough to get it.

[azfalt]

More level feeling oddities - my dwarf priest just found the Trident of Wrath lying on the floor at 850' with a level feeling of "you feel unsure about this place"

Posted on the ladder here.

I guess that covers See Invis...

[Dubtrain]

Isn't the "you feel unsure" message generated in place of a specific feeling when you enter a new level without spending enough time on the previous level?

[Cauldron]

No, that message is: "This looks like any other level." or something like that.

-C

[Zikke]

What does "You feel unsure" mean with level feelings anyway? And also "This place looks reasonably safe"?