Spoilers updated for Vanilla 3.0.8!

**andrewdoull** · July 11, 2007, 12:47

Originally posted by Hugo

Now that a new official version of Angband has been released, I felt it was time to update some spoiler files as well.

Suffice it to say, I'm really impressed with the quality of these spoilers.

You may wish to mention in the 'what qualifies as good' section of obj-good.spo, that potions that raise an attribute will be considered good if the attribute in question is not at its maximum natural level.

Other than that, looks fine.

andrew

**andrewdoull** · July 11, 2007, 12:53

Originally posted by Hugo

Now that a new official version of Angband has been released, I felt it was time to update some spoiler files as well.

All the following spoiler files are now updated to reflect the game as of version 3.0.8:

On a character's spellcasting abilities:
* magic.spo -- Complete description of spells and prayers, including failure chance, number of spells gained, and lots more.
* books.spo -- Short overview of what spells are in each book.

On objects:
* obj-desc.spo -- Short overview of basic items.
* obj-long.spo -- Complete description of items, item generation, enchantment, item damaging ... basically, everything related to non-magical items.
* obj-good.spo -- Complete description of creation of ego items and artifacts, full listing of all properties any item may have, and more.
* artifact.spo -- All properties of each artifact the game has.

On monsters:
* mon-info.spo -- Complete monster information, for all monsters.
* mon-desc.spo -- Brief monster table, by level.
* mon-name.spo -- Brief monster table, by name.
* mon-view.spo -- Brief monster table, by symbol.
* mon-race.spo -- Brief monster table, non-uniques only, by level.
* mon-uniq.spo -- Brief monster table, uniques only, by level.

On a related note, it should be possible to automate many of these (particularly mon-name.spo, mon-view.spo, mon-race.spo and mon-uniq.spo). Do you want me to committ the changes to the Angband codebase?

I'd also like to copy the file name format for Unangband, with your permission.

Andrew

**Hugo** · July 11, 2007, 14:04

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the compliments. It's good to know that people are actually reading this stuff.

WRT stat-raising potions, I have a short overview in the definition of the term "good" ("or one of the better potions"), and give a detailed description in the section on the generation of guaranteed good objects ("and Potions of Healing, *Healing*, Life, and Augmentation. Objects that are only considered good in some cases are Potions of Restore Mana for spell-casting characters, and Potions of Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, or Charisma for characters that have their corresponding stat currently below maximum (18/100)."

Did you miss the second part, or do you think this is insufficient?

WRT generating the different versions of the monster list - currently I load them into UltraEdit and invoke it's sort to transform mon-desc into mon-name and mon-view. I transform mon-desc into mon-race and mon-uniq by manuallly removing monsters that shouldn't be in there. I could possibly automate that using grep or some such function, if I didn't feel that downloading and installing a grep for windows and learning the syntax probably takes more time than doing it by hand.

If these files could be generated by the game, it would save me probably from 5 to 10 minutes per release of Angband. If you can implement the code in about that amount of time, then I'd love to see it implemented. If it would take you several hours, then you'd probably better spent that time implementing great new features for Unangband, or hunting down bugs.

File name format: No problem. All these file names were already in use when I first started reviewing the outdated spoilers. The only file name I concocted is mon-act.spo, and that spoiler isn't even finished yet!

**andrewdoull** · July 11, 2007, 14:28

Originally posted by Hugo

Hi Andrew,

Thanks for the compliments. It's good to know that people are actually reading this stuff.

WRT stat-raising potions, I have a short overview in the definition of the term "good" ("or one of the better potions"), and give a detailed description in the section on the generation of guaranteed good objects ("and Potions of Healing, *Healing*, Life, and Augmentation. Objects that are only considered good in some cases are Potions of Restore Mana for spell-casting characters, and Potions of Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, Dexterity, Constitution, or Charisma for characters that have their corresponding stat currently below maximum (18/100)."

Did you miss the second part, or do you think this is insufficient?

Missed it. The second part is fine. I'm waiting to hear howls on the newsgroup but either no one has picked it up in the change log or everyone agreed with it.

Basically it has two problems:

1) The 'required' potions to kill Morgoth become much easier to find, by scumming for monsters with good drops. I personally think this is a good thing.

2) Great Wyrms of Ice become painful to fight. The potion of Life shatters. -more-

Originally posted by Hugo

WRT generating the different versions of the monster list - currently I load them into UltraEdit and invoke it's sort to transform mon-desc into mon-name and mon-view. I transform mon-desc into mon-race and mon-uniq by manuallly removing monsters that shouldn't be in there. I could possibly automate that using grep or some such function, if I didn't feel that downloading and installing a grep for windows and learning the syntax probably takes more time than doing it by hand.

If these files could be generated by the game, it would save me probably from 5 to 10 minutes per release of Angband. If you can implement the code in about that amount of time, then I'd love to see it implemented. If it would take you several hours, then you'd probably better spent that time implementing great new features for Unangband, or hunting down bugs.

File name format: No problem. All these file names were already in use when I first started reviewing the outdated spoilers. The only file name I concocted is mon-act.spo, and that spoiler isn't even finished yet!

I think its going to be a quick fix. The books spoiler might be doable as well, although the code will be a little longer.

Andrew

**Nolendil** · July 11, 2007, 20:44

Originally posted by Hugo

It's good to know that people are actually reading this stuff.

Be assured that they are invaluable. Even if play Angband since 2.7.x, I'm still a newbie in several aspects (e.g. I never won, shame on me) and have to dig in them from time to time

Thanks for keeping them up to date.

PS : Are the spoilers in the focus of the GPL initiative or is it useless/impossible to do?

**Hugo** · July 11, 2007, 23:25

Originally posted by Nolendil

Are the spoilers in the focus of the GPL initiative or is it useless/impossible to do?

Hi Nolendil,

The spoiler files artifact.spo, obj-desc.spo, mon-desc.spo, and mon-info.spo are generated by Angband. I only added an opening paragraph that describes the contents. As far as I understand copyright, they come under whatever license Angband carries.

The files mon-name.spo, mon-race.spo, mon-uniq.spo, and mon-view.spo are created by resorting and/or filtering mon-desc.spo. I guess that I am legally entitled to claim some sorts of rights on this, but I won't.

The file books.spo is still very similar to the original version I found when I started maintaining spoiler files. I corrected some changes, but changed nothing to the format and added nothing. I don't know if a license has even been specified when it was first distributed, but I don't feel I have any rights to claim any other license.

The files magic.spo and obj-good.spo, and the spoiler menu navigation files *.hlp are the files I changed most. I retained so little from the originals that I dare claim them as my own. I am prepared to release them under any license that offers reasonable protection of my intellectual property and my wish to make this information available at no cost to Angband players. I don't know the details of the GPL, but I expect that this license will meet my requirements.

That leaves one problem file - obj-long.spo. I have added much to the contents, rewritten large portions, but I have also retained large parts of the original and maintained most of the original formatting. This file probably should be released partly under it's original license (whatever it was), partly under a license of my choice. <sigh>

For all the files that you find on my site but that are not mentioned here, I have done nothing but to find them, include them in the menu, and upload them to my site. Only the license terms of the original authors apply.

Does this answer your question?

**Ghen** · July 13, 2007, 12:38

Originally posted by Nolendil

Be assured that they are invaluable. Even if play Angband since 2.7.x, I'm still a newbie in several aspects (e.g. I never won, shame on me) and have to dig in them from time to time

Thanks for keeping them up to date.

PS : Are the spoilers in the focus of the GPL initiative or is it useless/impossible to do?

I also use the spoilers from time to time, like when I've been away from the game for 3 years

**Nolendil** · July 16, 2007, 01:07

Originally posted by Hugo

Does this answer your question?

Yes, even more than I expected

My concern was about being able to distribute the spoilers with Angband.

There is a link to your site on rephial.org but it's not the only place where you can download Angband so people might not know where to get them or even that they exist. (HINT : Pav, could you add a link to the spoilers in the download section?

)
Maybe there could be a dummy "spoiler.hlp" file provided with Angband and containing a link to your site with instructions about how to install them.

Distributing them with Angband would be better but I suppose it would need to have the same license to do so.
However, some files would be ok but some have no clear license and/or unknown authors which makes the situation difficult to resolve.

My question was also if someone would consider doing the same effort as the Open Source Initiative currently in progress for Angband.
Or maybe we could consider rewriting (and updating) the problematic files so that we can claim authorship on them and release them under whatever license pleases us (I might volunteer to participate although I'm not sure of the quality I could provide).

**Hugo** · July 16, 2007, 08:32

Hi Nolendil,

re: Distributing spoilers with Angband - I think you'll find some disagreement here. Some players think that spoilers are bad and should not exist. I disagree, obviously - since Angband is an open source project, writing spoilers just gives people who don't read C the same opportunities as those who do. :-) But I do agree that consulting spoilers shouldn't be too easy, as it might spoil the fun of discovery for a new player. Having them as a seperate download on a seperate site will at least make sure that new players won't accidentally read them. I like the idea of a link to the spoiler location in a default spoiler.hlp file, but it's of course up to Andrew to decide.

re: link to spoilers in download section - There is already a link to the spoilers site in the Links section. I'm not sure if the downloads section would be an appropriate place for such a link (but if Pav agrees with you, I won't object - I'm glad wiith every link that any site puts up!)

re: Open Source Initiative - I won't take any action here. I just completely lack the time for thiws. It would be a major undertaking - some spoiler files don't even list their authors, you know :-)

re: Rewriting and updating outdated files - Getting a complete set of spoilers that is fully up to date is still on my to-do list. Unfortunately, that list is rather long and I often have periods of weeks or more that I don't even have time to play Angband, let alone work on spoiler files.
I am currently working on mon-act.spo - a new spoiler file, describing all actions a monster can take in its turn, including all attacks monsters have (so mon-act.spo will replace the outdated mon-blow.spo), plus a description of a character's saving throw. Next on my list is a spoiler file for all abilities of a character, that should replace ability.spo (and possibly stats.spo as well). The saving throw discussion will of course be moved from mon-act.spo to this new file once it's finished.
With those two additional spoiler files finished, most of the action in the game is described. Dungeon generation (currently in dungeon.spo) is last on my list. I will not attempt to rewrite the strategy guides, since I'm frankly a rather lousy player :-)

If you, or anyone else, wants to write, rewrite, or update any spoiler files, please do. I'll gladly host them and scratch them from my own to-do list. Just contact me first if you consider doing anything that might overlap with mon-act.spo, since it would be wasteful if you spend time describing something I already have covered.

**Nolendil** · July 16, 2007, 20:05

Originally posted by Hugo

re: Distributing spoilers with Angband

Well, people don't have to read them if they don't want. I think the name is quite explicit but maybe adding a big warning on "spoiler.hlp" (like the first paragraph on your spoiler page) would be nice too so that people know what they are doing.
If putting a default "spoiler.hlp" file with a link seems like a good idea, maybe we shouldn't bother about license and go for it. It took me some time to find the spoilers when I started playing Angband (I thought for a long time that my distribution was incomplete since you only get a "file not found" kind of error when trying to read them). And even now, I regularly lose the URL of your site (thanks for posting here or I might have not noticed the update for years

). Being able to find them easily without being a newsgroup or forum addict is my first concern.
I hope Andrew will consider this.

Originally posted by Hugo

re: link to spoilers in download section

Oops, right. But I expected to see them on the "Download" tab in the "Extra files" section.
Don't know if adding a link there is needed either. It's up to Pav to decide.

Originally posted by Hugo

re: Open Source Initiative

And I also believe it would be even harder to find the people who contributed to spoilers than those who contributed to the code.

Originally posted by Hugo

re: Rewriting and updating outdated files

It's nice to hear that you plan to update even more spoilers. Your current work will be very interesting to read.
I'm not sure I could contribute much, I was more thinking about rephrasing the old spoilers than really changing them, which means no knowledge would be needed. Maybe, I'll have a look to see if a file would be appropriate for this kind of task but no promise, I have loads of professional and personal projects crawling on my todo list (including making a OpenGL hexagonal roguelike

).
Concerning the strategy guide, I can't do much either as I'm probably a worse player than you (no win in about 10 years)

**pav** · July 16, 2007, 20:32

I'd say trying to slap a software license on a article of text is quite silly, and legally totally bogus. So, as long as you respect the usual copyright that applies to books or magazine articles, you're just fine.

**takkaria** · July 16, 2007, 22:16

Originally posted by pav

I'd say trying to slap a software license on a article of text is quite silly, and legally totally bogus. So, as long as you respect the usual copyright that applies to books or magazine articles, you're just fine.

I don't see that the GPL would be unreasonable for written text, really, given that the source is simply the text file itself, and it keeps compatibility with the sources in case text was ever imported.

That said, I'm starting to favour a less restrictive copyleft thesedays...

**Hugo** · July 16, 2007, 23:36

Originally posted by takkaria

That said, I'm starting to favour a less restrictive copyleft thesedays...

For the spoiler files, I don't really care much - as far as I'm concerned, they can be redistributed, modified, and quoted from at will with just a few basic constraints: I want to be acknowledged as (partial, in some cases) author, modified versions should be marked as modified, and unmodified versions should not be sold for money.

Maybe I should add some notice to this extent to the files, but I'm afraid of stepping in a legal snakepit. Since the spoilers are merely describing the mechanics of Angband, they can hardly be called an original work, so I'm afraid that whether we want it or not, the Angband licensing terms do apply anyway. But maybe someone with more background in legal, copyright, and license issues than me (that is, someone with any background in those matters

) can chime in and clariify whether I'm right or wrong here.

Things might get even more complicated for the spoiler files generated by the game, or for those that I create by merely filtering or sorting a generated spoiler file

**pav** · July 16, 2007, 23:47

A book on a software product or on a commercial game is surely a copyright work by it's author - not a derivative of the game, and is not licensed same as the game.

I don't see why your spoilers should be any different - they actually not contain any code copy-pasted from Angband.

Software licenses like GPL only cover the rights and restriction for using the software. They have little meaning to the source, if it's never executed. Even less meaning to the text files.

The software documentation is not covered by GPL or other software license, but by your usual copyright _only_. Copyright != license. A lot of people miss this subtle difference.

Spoilers updated for Vanilla 3.0.8!

Spoilers updated for Vanilla 3.0.8!

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