Restocking

[Narvius]

Random idea, Entro-induced*:

Kill automatic shop restocking, replace by something along the lines of "Pay X AU, all shops restock." Removes the need for townscumming (no ?PD? -> restock! No !CCW? -> restock! ...), and removes the need for townscumming (these yummy boots of speed at the black market are going to wait for you).
Drawback's of course the abuse of the Blackmarket.
Well, I don't think that would be a drawback. More like a new way to spend cash.

* You can rest at an inn for 20AU. Advances time and makes shop restock after 1-2 uses.

[Donald Jonker]

Or indeed, why don't the stores restock after one turn spent in the dungeon?

After much ado spent on the topic of townscumming, I'm still very fuzzy about the lack of consensus. Since it is allowed, why do we punish it with bad turncounts?

After a brief scan on the forums, two chief reasons seem to come up:

1. We punish it because town behavior is a source of difficulty. This is buzzkill's take,* but I presume it is shared by many of the old guard. But isn't buying out the store late in the game basically the same as townscumming? Do we consider it a right that the player has earned from all the toil in the dungeon?

2. We punish it because we like randomness. As far as I can tell, this is Takkaria's take.* It doesn't seem that compelling outside the black market - although with the appearance of ego items in the equipment shops this has changed.. a little.

Another idea: 3. We punish it because it's boring. But it could be made less boring by adopting Narvius's plan or thirty other ones that have been proposed.

lastly, 4. Because that's the way it has been, and it's not that high a priority for reform at the moment.

*please correct me if I misrepresent.

Am I missing anything? I'm especially interested to hear Takkaria's party line on it. Maybe I'll make a poll. I feel like we keep skirting the issue, and that the vast majority of people would rather get what they want when they want it without penalty.

[takkaria]

Or indeed, why don't the stores restock after one turn spent in the dungeon?

After much ado spent on the topic of townscumming, I'm still very fuzzy about the lack of consensus. Since it is allowed, why do we punish it with bad turncounts?

After a brief scan on the forums, two chief reasons seem to come up:

1. We punish it because town behavior is a source of difficulty. This is buzzkill's take,* but I presume it is shared by many of the old guard. But isn't buying out the store late in the game basically the same as townscumming? Do we consider it a right that the player has earned from all the toil in the dungeon?

2. We punish it because we like randomness. As far as I can tell, this is Takkaria's take.* It doesn't seem that compelling outside the black market - although with the appearance of ego items in the equipment shops this has changed.. a little.

Another idea: 3. We punish it because it's boring. But it could be made less boring by adopting Narvius's plan or thirty other ones that have been proposed.

lastly, 4. Because that's the way it has been, and it's not that high a priority for reform at the moment.

*please correct me if I misrepresent.

Am I missing anything? I'm especially interested to hear Takkaria's party line on it. Maybe I'll make a poll. I feel like we keep skirting the issue, and that the vast majority of people would rather get what they want when they want it without penalty.

I'd say I was closer to 3 than 2, though 4 counts for me as well. I don't like buyout-restocking any more than I like townscumming, and I'd like to come up with solutions which make both of them as unnecessary as possible and in the townscumming case, possibly impossible. I'm following all the discussions about this even if I don't reply, since it's food for thought.

[konijn_]

Random idea, Entro-induced*:

Kill automatic shop restocking, replace by something along the lines of "Pay X AU, all shops restock." Removes the need for townscumming (no ?PD? -> restock! No !CCW? -> restock! ...), and removes the need for townscumming (these yummy boots of speed at the black market are going to wait for you).
Drawback's of course the abuse of the Blackmarket.
Well, I don't think that would be a drawback. More like a new way to spend cash.

* You can rest at an inn for 20AU. Advances time and makes shop restock after 1-2 uses.

It's called a "bail out", not sure Angband can handle a trillion gold pc. package though.

T.

[buzzkill]

JONKER!!! Oh why, oh why did you have to drag me into this. I was really, really trying to avoid this thread.

1. We punish it because town behavior is a source of difficulty. This is Buzzkill's take.

Please quote your source on this.

Just kidding. Though I'm not quite sure what you mean by this, "town behavior is a source of difficulty".

I don't oppose town scumming any more than I oppose any other type of scumming. I feel that they are all pretty much on the same level. In general, I chiefly oppose scumming because it is unrealistic in real-life terms. And, although a fantasy game, the Angband universe in based not-so-loosely on the real world. Going up and down a set of stairs shouldn't cause a new dungeon level to appear, any more than going up and down a set of stairs should miraculously restock the town. I feel that my reasoning, the realism point of view, however, is in the minority.

I have no problem at all with anyone scumming, or out right cheating, in any way they choose during their own personal (non-competition) play. Whatever makes the game fun for the individual is good for Angband and concerns me not.

In competition terms, as long as the rules concerning scumming are made clear, I don't have a problem with scumming being allowed in some competitions. I'd would probably choose not to participate in said competitions for four reasons. First, it would be a radical change in strategy for me, and I believe it encourages weak survival and play habits. Secondly, it just feels a lot like cheating to me, and I don't believe I'd enjoy playing that way. Third, I've never beaten the game, that bugs me a little, and when I do win I want it to be completely legitimate in my own mind. Fourth, in recent competitions Evariste has demonstrated that it isn't necessary.

What I find very annoying about the recent threads is that most of the solutions suggested for eliminating town scumming see to revolve around giving the player exactly what he wants, when he wants it in some other way. In my opinion this roughly equates to solving a bank robbery problem by placing simply passing out money to anyone who asks for it, thereby, no more robberies.

I'm not entirely opposed to buying out stores in order to force restock. In essence, by buying out the store, you become to pseudo-owner, and therefore have access to the items you want (hopefully). Buying out stores isn't one of my routine practices. I've only done it once, ever, and IIRC the store stock was already pretty low.

As for the 20AU spend the night, all stores completely restocked idea. Sounds bad, way to easy, way to cheap. Isn't this how town scumming works now, only you spend the night in the dungeon.

[Pete Mack]

@buzzkill-

you put it very clearly. I agree completely, with the caveat that there's no reason to make buying out a store so annoying. A modestly discounted inventory buyout command would solve most problems. For really basic utilities, buyouts are pretty cheap, so long as you don't sell priest books & weaponry in the temple.

[Donald Jonker]

JONKER!!! Oh why, oh why did you have to drag me into this. I was really, really trying to avoid this thread.

And my devious plan worked so brilliantly... everything is illuminated.

Please quote your source on this.

Now I know exactly where to turn. Bravo, signori.

[buzzkill]

@buzzkill-you put it very clearly. I agree completely, with the caveat...

Thanks for the support. That took me longer to write than I'd like to admit.

Let me step out a little farther on my limb by quoting Donald...

4. Because that's the way it has been, and it's not that high a priority for reform at the moment.

The same could be said for allowing scumming in it's current form.

[Zikke]

I think it's silly to try to specifically prevent people from scumming by means of programming. The game allows people to save-file scum and hockey puck kill any time they want to. The people who want to will, and the people who don't think it's right won't.

It's like trying to make a gun that auto-detects if you're aiming at a puppy and disallows you to shoot the puppy. Can't people just decide whether or not they should townscum?

[tigpup]

[quote=Zikke;14889]I think it's silly to try to specifically prevent people from scumming by means of programming. The game allows people to save-file scum and hockey puck kill any time they want to. The people who want to will, and the people who don't think it's right won't.
quote]

I agree with this, and

"Whatever makes the game fun for the individual is good for Angband and concerns me not." (buzzkill)

Coming up with new ways of beating the game is fun, whether it's "fair play" or not.

When it comes to competitions and the ladder, things are a little different.
Creating a level playing field here is important.

Has anyone ever created a 'cheats guide'? I think this might be useful for both cheats, noobs and developers. I'd be interested to see the reponses to this.

-Neil

[Donald Jonker]

[QUOTE=tigpup;14893]

Has anyone ever created a 'cheats guide'? I think this might be useful for both cheats, noobs and developers. I'd be interested to see the reponses to this.

I'm not aware of any, except for limited sections in TANG and so forth. If no one else wants the job (I'm thinking of people with stronger moral compasses than I), I'll go ahead and make one up and submit it for review in the next few days. Sounds like fun.

EDIT: Apologies for the double post. Pav, if it is convenient, please delete this one, thanks!

[Donald Jonker]

Has anyone ever created a 'cheats guide'? I think this might be useful for both cheats, noobs and developers. I'd be interested to see the reponses to this.

I'm not aware of any, except for limited sections in TANG and so forth. If no one else wants the job (I'm thinking of people with stronger moral compasses than I), I'll go ahead and make one up and submit it for review in the next few days. Sounds like fun.

[bebo]

I think it's silly to try to specifically prevent people from scumming by means of programming. The game allows people to save-file scum and hockey puck kill any time they want to. The people who want to will, and the people who don't think it's right won't.

It's like trying to make a gun that auto-detects if you're aiming at a puppy and disallows you to shoot the puppy. Can't people just decide whether or not they should townscum?

I have to partially disagree here, save-scumming and town-scumming are on completely different levels: not only from a philosophical point of view (ie save-scumming is absolutely unacceptable, and totally ruins the game, at least for me), but also from a "logical" point of view - town scumming is permitted within the game by the way it is coded; it may not be the most clean way of playing (although i don't feel about it that way, i can understand how some do), but it doesn't circumvent any set of in-game rules. Save-scumming does. Also from a competition point of view, town scumming directly and heavily affects turn-counts, so it does have it's drawbacks - namely you are practically sure you won't win the competition if you do.

As a side note i have to add that i am playing my latest char with no town-scumming, and while the game is definitely more challenging and at times frustrating, the impact on gameplay i have to admit is not so huge as i would have feared. So for those reading this and accustomed to town-scumming (like me), i have a suggestion - give it a try to play without this mechanic, and see how you feel.

I'm sorry if this post is a bit harsh, i hope i was able to convey my point of view without offending anyone.

EDIT: i realize now that i may have missed the point of your post - you are right in saying that everyone should be given the liberty of save-scumming if they wish so, although i'm partially conflicted regarding town-scumming - i'm in favor of code changes apt to reduce people's reliance on this form of play

[bio_hazard]

TOME has a 20gp/night inn as well. It is useful for getting things restocked, but isn't ideal in my opinion in that 1) it might as well pseudo-ID everything for you while you are "resting", and more importantly 2) it only works during the night cycle of the game, so if you leave the inn the next morning, go see that the identify scrolls or ccw potions still haven't been stocked, you have to rest for thousands of turns until night falls again and you can go back and sleep the night away.

in game flavor- its kind of bogus that you have a giant house but can't even rest in it for free!

I would love to have an artifact "Tome of Sears and Roebuck" that you could order any amount of anything from the normal stores and pick it up at the inn....

[Atarlost]

Tome also has four towns and wilderness movement takes a lot more gametime than realtime. Doing a circuit may or may not be enough to force a restock depending on the permiability of the mountains, but doing a circuit with a stay in the inn should be.