Ideas for V: "Support" diving? (also, newbie help)

[momo125]

If you want to help divers: skip to WoR in birth inven and give us a couple deep descent.
also shafts or double stairs from variants which allow for 2+ dng lvl drops

instead of auto scum create a smaller dungeon option.
50 lvls instead of 100 or harder mosnters faster
In NPP light green or tan orcs can come on lvl 1

[Pete Mack]

Deep Descent is too valuable as an escape to waste it on going down a couple levels. Unless I have a huge stack of Tele Level, I save Descent for emergencies.

Shafts are another story, although I am of mixed feelings. They may make the dungeon too safe, as you have to spend less time risking your life getting to the stairs down.

I think the current starting point of ?WoR and 200gp is a good compromise. As it stands, it's a tough decision on where to spend your initial 200gp between ?Phase and !CSW, vs archery and/or more damage.

[andrewdoull]

I think the solution is to inform the player of the dangerous nature of the game, before they consider playing, and not get too attached to their characters.

Would preventing new players from choosing a class and race help here?

Andrew

[Pete Mack]

Would preventing new players from choosing a class and race help here?

Andrew

You mean like saying you can't pick Mage as your starting class? I don't think it's worth it. The strategy guide, such as it is, already suggests that you pick Warrior or Ranger. That's pretty good advice, with the caveat that Rogue or Paladin aren't bad choices for a newbie, either.

[buzzkill]

The HCI side of me wants to get a panel together of non-*band users and see what they think about all this instead of everybody trying to estimate what they think.

Yep, I think that we are way over-thinking this.

[Djabanete]

Sorry if this has already been suggested somewhere, but what about the idea of giving an XP boost whenever you reach a depth you've never been to before? Has this been discussed? It seems like it would encourage players to explore deeper, where the exciting things are to be found. The quicker the pace of the game, the less reluctant newbies will be to try again. (If your first run is a rapid crash-and-burn romp to level 10 rather than an agonizing "kill-white-lice-forever-and-then-die-on-level-10-anyway" you might not mind doing it over.)

[Zikke]

You mean like saying you can't pick Mage as your starting class? I don't think it's worth it. The strategy guide, such as it is, already suggests that you pick Warrior or Ranger. That's pretty good advice, with the caveat that Rogue or Paladin aren't bad choices for a newbie, either.

In theory, good software shouldn't need to user to read the guide or manual at all to be able to figure out what to do. I think having a *Recommended for new players* tag on a couple classes might be enough. Or an "I'm new, what do you recommend?" option in the menu.

[Atarlost]

In theory, good software shouldn't need to user to read the guide or manual at all to be able to figure out what to do. I think having a *Recommended for new players* tag on a couple classes might be enough. Or an "I'm new, what do you recommend?" option in the menu.

In theory, theory and practice are the same. In practice they're not.

[Donald Jonker]

Every in-game tutorial for a roguelike I've ever experienced has been absolute rubbish (I can think of at least 5 off-hand). The only way to get into one, I've found, is to play a warrior-type for a little while, get a feel, and then obsessively read spoilers, newsgroups, and forums. Put that in a readme, and I think the newbie guide is complete.

[Atarlost]

Every in-game tutorial for a roguelike I've ever experienced has been absolute rubbish (I can think of at least 5 off-hand). The only way to get into one, I've found, is to play a warrior-type for a little while, get a feel, and then obsessively read spoilers, newsgroups, and forums. Put that in a readme, and I think the newbie guide is complete.

Warriors may be robust, but they aren't representative. Detection and avoidance is such a big part of the game they're severely handicapped for anything resembling diving. If diving is to be the reccomended behavior warriors shouldn't be the reccomended class. They were good for grinding, but grinding and permadeath don't mix well. I think rogues are a better choice. They better put the player in the stealth and avoidance mindset they need for long term play.

[Donald Jonker]

Warriors may be robust, but they aren't representative. Detection and avoidance is such a big part of the game they're severely handicapped for anything resembling diving. If diving is to be the reccomended behavior warriors shouldn't be the reccomended class. They were good for grinding, but grinding and permadeath don't mix well. I think rogues are a better choice. They better put the player in the stealth and avoidance mindset they need for long term play.

Whatever floats your boat. Rogues surely fall under "warrior-type." For my part, though, I don't like wading through spell-menus when cracking open something as complex as a new roguelike, but that's just me.

Anyway, the idea is to get them accustomed through immersion in as simple a game scenario as possible, and let folks seek info as they need it by querying the community... basically the way it's done now. Tutorials have a way of flinging too much information at you all at once.

How's this for breaking in newbies: each copy of the game comes with a savefile named "Newbie" which has a half-troll/high-elf warrior/rogue optimized for 4-blows/3-blows, respectively? That'll keep new players alive long enough to get hooked.

[CunningGabe]

How's this for breaking in newbies: each copy of the game comes with a savefile named "Newbie" which has a half-troll/high-elf warrior/rogue optimized for 4-blows/3-blows, respectively? That'll keep new players alive long enough to get hooked.

I really like this idea. Heck, why not create a few more "starter" characters of varying races and classes? Teach by example that STR and CON are important for everybody (though in varying degrees), CHR for nobody (yet), that Humans are challenging, and so on. I've been playing off and on for several years, but even I'd appreciate this -- it would give me some impetus to try a new class and not worry that I haven't optimized it appropriately.

[tigpup]

How's this for breaking in newbies: each copy of the game comes with a savefile named "Newbie" which has a half-troll/high-elf warrior/rogue optimized for 4-blows/3-blows, respectively? That'll keep new players alive long enough to get hooked.

Perhaps, but it might also give a false impression of the game. Learning how to run a big tough survivable character might hook a few noobs, but for me part of the essence of the game is learning how to die and deal with it. The hook of the game for me is to do with finding, maxxing, killing, optimizing and hoping, rather than winning.

If I'd beaten V after 5 attempts, I'd no longer be playing.

Getting noobs to *understand* is more likely to help build a player_base than making things too easy IMHO. Reading the spoilers for M and plain gold ring made me want to be a good enough player to encounter those things.

Even now that I have beaten M & found TOR, I still want to be a better player, but not if it's made too easy.

For noobs, I would advocate: Easy to understand, easy to play (functional), hard to master, hooked by challenge.

-Neil

[Atarlost]

"newbie" is condescending. I'd call them something like "Sample Warrior" and "Sample Rogue". Maybe "Sample Ranger" as well.

[Pete Mack]

No character, even a "big tough" one, is survivable for a newbie. And a H-T rogue is not as tough as all that--he really needs to get to cl 20 for detection spells to be useful.

And having a newbie character already equipped with decent starting gear means that people won't be trying to reinvent (or rediscover by searching rgra or this forum) what you should aim for when getting started.
(Something along the lines of:
Main Gauche, Longbow, 3 ?Phase Door, 2 !CSW, arrows, 1 ?Tele Level, 1 ?Recall, 1 !Hero, MB1)

For a newbie, starting out with a mage is just too tempting, and too immediately frustrating.