Complete N00b's Journey: The Series

[wizard44]

Complete N00b's Journey: Prologue

Hello everybody. This is a n00b who is here in my second roguelike tour of duty after I gave up on Elona due to the difficulty understanding the mechanics as well as the inability to deal with its stupid thirst mechanic. Some of you may remember me from when I visited Angband in my first tour of duty. After getting owned by the cruelty of Iter Vehemens ad Necem (IVAN), the community there recommended that I play this free game. Below is my roguelike resume:

Outstanding Nethack experience: Managed to ascend every role at least once in 3.4.3, and still have an excellent playing record in the 3.6 versions.

Exceeds Expectations ADOM experience: Achieved several ultra endings back when it was free and before Steam came into the scene. Haven't played the Steam version due to pricing though.

Exceeds Expectations DoomRL experience: Fully won the game several times, but only up to the Ultra-Violence Difficulty (I like being able to save my games, thank you very much, so hard pass to Nightmare) and even managed to obtain two Diamond Medals from my efforts there.

Acceptable Angband experience: Killed Morgoth after 5 attempts (all 5 characters of which were generated with random states rather than a point-based roller).

Acceptable ZAP'M experience: Won a couple of games, but I got bored of that real fast.

Acceptable Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup experience: Escaped with the Orb in a 3-rune game as a Demigod Fighter after 4 attempts with randomly generated characters.

Acceptable Brogue experience: Escaped with the Amulet of Yendor once after 10 tries.

Acceptable Rogue experience: The deepest I got was level 16 I think.

Poor experience with PRIME: Haven't made it into the robot town.

Poor experience with Elona+: The farthest I made it was in Act 1 to Lesimas: 30 after four tries in Loss mode.

Poor experience with IVAN: The farthest I ever made was the first level of the Gloomy Caves after four tries.

So now I am delving deep into (Vanilla) Sil 1.3, under a series titled "Complete N00b's Journey" where I create a character at random, and hope for the best, because that is just what I do and random generation is my thing. In this series, the number before the hyphen will signify the attempt that I am playing, and the number after the hyphen signifies the goal that I have completed. The first goal that all characters will focus on is to get to the 250’ depth. Something new that I am trying for games in this second tour of duty is that I will only be making four attempts per game, as I feel that is a sufficient number of tries to see a game’s capabilities. This series will continue until I either get a Silmaril and escape Angband, or die four times. If the latter happens, I will be giving my overall impression of this game and be thanking anyone who has helped me in these four runs.

My questions before I begin this game:

I played the tutorial a couple of times, and managed to reach the downstairs after some clever retreating techniques with the fire-drake (after getting killed three times by the fire-drake and its cronies). So my impression is that the overall game strategy lies heavily in the “don’t kill everything you see” camp, similar to what the optimal approach was in Dungeon Crawl: Stone Soup. With that being said, is the approach to dive aggressively to 950’ or some other deep level to get equipment, experience, and other benefits more quickly? Or should you linger in the shallow levels to play it safe?

On another note, what are the different ways to get a Silmaril from Morgoth’s crown? I know that you can either go the extra mile and kill Morgoth, put him to sleep and have the crown drop, but what are the other ways to accomplish your goal once you reach the throne room?

Is there a skill that almost every character needs to get in order to survive? I have heard a lot about Loremaster, but will taking that skill (or any other necessary one) prohibit me from committing to any builds to the required level to survive?

How much experience points should be committed to the eight skill attributes, and how many points should go to skills? I heard that achieving 8 (base) in evasion and melee scores should be a top priority in most builds before looking at abilities, but I’m curious on what the overall consensus is from the veterans here. On that note, should all of the 5,000 starting experience points go to improving the character right away, or is a lot of it best spent when you finish a certain depth?

Is the rest command (‘Shift + 5’) reliable? Or does it often lead to more trouble than it’s worth?

How plentiful is food in this game? For games like Brogue, food management was very important due to the relative scarcity, while in other games like Nethack or ADOM, food soon became a non-issue after the first levels of gameplay.

Since there will be sticky curses, there will obviously be a tad more caution when equipping weapons and armor. Which pieces of weapons and armor should I look for in the early game? And do you equip these items as soon as you get them and take a risk knowing that they are cursed, or wait until you have an uncursing method? On that note, are lots of early equipment cursed in general?

Which types of consumables is a good class to use-id, and when?

Is smithing something that most characters pursue at some point, or is it only for dedicated builds like it was for ADOM?

Any other tips are appreciated!

[wobbly]

With that being said, is the approach to dive aggressively to 950' or some other deep level to get equipment, experience, and other benefits more quickly? Or should you linger in the shallow levels to play it safe?

Both work, so a matter of preference. It also depends on race. Noldor are much stronger then Edain giving them more leeway to dive aggressively.

I clear the 1st level, but really I'm just after leather armour & boots. Then I like to find a helm or shield before archers start showing up at 200'-ish. After that just find a pace based on how well you're handling enemies. Most of the good stuff wont start turning up till 400'.

On another note, what are the different ways to get a Silmaril from Morgoths crown? I know that you can either go the extra mile and kill Morgoth, put him to sleep and have the crown drop, but what are the other ways to accomplish your goal once you reach the throne room?

Sleep, Kill or Hit & Run. You can use archery instead of melee, just have to hit him hard enough.

Is there a skill that almost every character needs to get in order to survive? I have heard a lot about Loremaster, but will taking that skill (or any other necessary one) prohibit me from committing to any builds to the required level to survive?

You can generally afford loremaster on most builds unless you want listen or hunter (& even then you can, just expensive). I guess the major exceptions are extreme smithing and song builds.

How much experience points should be committed to the eight skill attributes, and how many points should go to skills? I heard that achieving 8 (base) in evasion and melee scores should be a top priority in most builds before looking at abilities, but I’m curious on what the overall consensus is from the veterans here. On that note, should all of the 5,000 starting experience points go to improving the character right away, or is a lot of it best spent when you finish a certain depth?

I don't see a point hoarding skill pts unless you are smithing. The rest of the question is tricky. For a very rough guide, if it's cheaper to get an extra melee or evasion point then a skill you're usually better of just getting more melee/evasion.

Is the rest command ('Shift + 5') reliable? Or does it often lead to more trouble than it's worth?

How plentiful is food in this game? For games like Brogue, food management was very important due to the relative scarcity, while in other games like Nethack or ADOM, food soon became a non-issue after the first levels of gameplay.

Rest is fine. Stand next to the wall, you'll be stealthier that way. I find food a non-issue but it depends a bit. You'll need to be careful if you're wearing a hunger item & there's a late game monster that hits for hunger.

Since there will be sticky curses, there will obviously be a tad more caution when equipping weapons and armor. Which pieces of weapons and armor should I look for in the early game? And do you equip these items as soon as you get them and take a risk knowing that they are cursed, or wait until you have an uncursing method? On that note, are lots of early equipment cursed in general?

For armour & jewellery I just risk it. If you're playing with an inventory window then some weapons glow around enemies. These weapons are always safe to wield.

Is smithing something that most characters pursue at some point, or is it only for dedicated builds like it was for ADOM?

Any other tips are appreciated!

Mostly dedicated builds & smiths can be a little frustrating. However Feanor & dwarves have the specialty, so getting some smithing is fairly ok. There's a guaranteed forge at 100'. Jeweller is cheap-ish if you just want a bit of smithing & later when you find mithril it'll be useful to get a big light.

[Infinitum]

Smithing is generally a trap choice (4 points + jeweler gets you early fenorian lamps generally). Loremaster bypasses the ID game, but ID'ing is generally not dangerous and fairly simple once you know what to look for (I wrote a guide for it a while back). Remember the true cost abilities = the last ability you purchase in any given tree, so cutting loremaster might save you a few thousand xp in all (especially as all melee characters want raukobane asap).

Generally more melee/evasion is better than extra abilities (with plenty of exceptions). ~25 melee is enough to hit most things, more depending on how reliant on crits your weapon is. Around 35 evasion is when endgame stuff stops hitting you reliably (45+ if you want to melee morgy).

You might want to start out with Q-Sil from the get go btw as that is still worked on, and the changes are a net positive imo (matter of taste though).

[wizard44]

Thank you for the tips. In particular, I highly appreciate Infinitum's guide for identifying items.

For this game, I will be posting the initial setup of each character in this thread. Because a lot of my characters will most likely die in the early game, a character will only get its own thread when it reaches the 250' depth.

My random character generation will involve randomly choosing the character's name, sex, history, age, height, weight, race, and house. For allocating my stat points, I randomly chose one of the four stats until I spent all 13 points. The reason why I do this is my general policy regarding roguelikes, which is to leave every starting circumstance "at birth" to chance whenever possible ... after all, trying to scum for the highest stats or play the most uber powerful race/class combo is getting far too close to save-scumming in my book. After all, you can't just reroll life's board such that you're born into a wealthy family or a family with superior genes. Dealing with such hardships from your starting circumstances, I say, is supposed to teach you about life and about the necessary need to adapt or die. The starting experience points, however, will not be spent until the character is fully generated and proper guidance is given by at least one member. This exception is because experience is technically a post-birth resource, making it a resource that I am okay controlling to some extent. I also set the low hitpoint warning threshold to 40% to give myself a reasonable warning buffer. All other settings are at their default values.

Complete Noob's Journey: Character #1

With that set, I randomly rolled my first character, which gave me Antumbor, a Naugrim from the House of Belegost. Random allocation saw me generating the character with 2 Strength, 2 Dexterity, 5 Constitution, and 3 Grace.

So the first question is: What do I spend the experience points for? I'm guessing that spending 4200 points on melee and evasion to get them to 8 values can't go wrong, based on the guides. Beyond that, I have no idea on what to do for the 800 remaining experience points. Do I pump stats even further (I can get another point of melee or evasion for 700 more points), or go for abilities?

So this character has an axe proficiency, a will affinity, a smithing affinity, and an archery penalty. Based on my stats, should I go for a song build due to my slightly higher grace skill? Or resort to an axe melee build? At any rate, I think if I find an axe, I stick with it until something better comes around.

Which monsters should I aim to kill in the first three floors, and which should I avoid at all costs?

I have posted the starting details for this character to the following ladder link below:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=22962

Answers to the above questions and other tips are highly appreciated.

[wobbly]

2 str is ideal for a 2lb longsword where you usually want high melee & finesse. I'd be going sword & board (The axe proficiency is only +1 accuracy & longswords are more accurate to start with). You can still use an axe, you'd just probably want power & no shield to be doing damage.

Re song: 3 grace isn't high (compared to an elf) & singer builds are harder

[Pete Mack]

Random char generation will be brutal in Sil. Yeah, you will lose a lot of chars until you get one that is roughly optimal. Might as well play with a char of your choice

[Infinitum]

Agreed. The races in particular are not balanced, acting more like a difficulty level. You definetly want to play Noldor a the very least. Houses are less important so randomizing those works just fine.

[wizard44]

Thank you for the tips everyone. Unfortunately, this character quickly bites the dust due to encountering some very out of depth monsters in 100 ft.

YASD #1: Surrounded and Killed by orcs and other nasties in a corridor.

After some research and some chatting on angband.live, I begin by allocating 4200 points to get my melee and evasion to 8, and 600 more points to get myself 3 perception points, since I observed that Keen Senses was one of the early skills that many builds obtained. I then picked up the starting curved sword to defend myself and explored the 50 ft level. I find leather armour, a battle axe, a shortbow, and a lesser jewel and head downstairs. On 100 ft, I get a cloak, and run into an out of depth gorcrow, who blinds me and nearly pecks me to death. I manage to kill it while use-id’ing a herb of sickness that I found earlier the level in a desperate attempt to heal myself. After surviving that stressful situation, I get arrows and studded leather armour, and get surrounded by a pair of orc soldiers. I manage to kill one of them, but in my attempt to escape, a blue serpent appears at the end of the corridor and cuts off my escape route. Needless to say, I die a very quick death. Pretty angry at myself for getting killed so early, and am so ashamed that I didn't create a dump file.

So now we move on to another character. May the RNG grant me a better combination.

Complete N00b’s Journey: Character #2

Say hello to Manni, a Female Edain from the House of Beor. So after randomly distributing the stats, my wish was not granted, as the character is weak sauce. But that is what life gives you.

This one takes the cake in fragility, but has a rather moderate enough amount of grace that I might consider a smithing build.

I think the plan is to dump as many points in melee and evasion as possible, but avoid any monster that moves like hell. If this character does have a chance of surviving, which build is the best option, and what skills and points should I invest in?

I have posted the starting details for this character to the following ladder link below:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=22970

Any tips for this character is appreciated, though I doubt this character even survives 50 ft.

[wobbly]

The gorcrow is likely the forge room. You'll learn to spot the shape, though the darkness is generally a sign that it's likely it. As for that edain that's about as tough as it get. I'm not sure what to suggest other then a sprinting pacifist that'll probably get shot to death.

[Pete Mack]

That bad DEX and CON will hurt. You might want to try pacifist. (Put everything in stealth, detdction, and song, and sing lullabies.)

[wizard44]

Thank you for the tips everyone. Complied with the pacifist suggestion. As predicted, however, the character met a quick death at the hands of a group of orcs at 150 ft.

YASD #2: The worst stealth/luck in the history of existence.

After some research and looking at previous pacifist runs, I gave myself 7 stealth points, 3 perception, and gave myself the Keen Senses and Disguise skills. Unfortunately, the rooms on the first level were filled with orcs, and despite my attempts to sneak by everybody, an orc notices me and I get nearly get killed by it. I manage to kill it and find the downstairs and immediately descend, as an orc scout notices me and pursues me. A grimhawk notices me, forcing me to go back upstairs, where I get leather armor, a longsword, and a pair of boots. I then head back down to 100 feet, where an orc notices me and begins a through chase through the level, where I barely reach a downstairs staircase to 150 feet. An orc scout quickly screwed up the fun and forced me back up to 100 feet, where I get a cloak, a shortbow and a set of special arrows that turned out to be poisoned arrows upon testing on an orc scout. After retreating back to 150 feet, I find a sky blue potion and get noticed by an orc, who alerts his buddies and starts a chase that kills me before I can escape back up the stairs, due to serious bad luck with an orc occupying the staircase and cutting me off, forcing me to go on a very desperate chase for the downstairs. Fate has truly dealt me a cruel hand with that character and given me an embarrassing loss.

And now we move on to the third of my four attempts with this game.

Complete N00b's Journey: Character #3

The random generator gives me Ragorlin, a Male Noldor from the house of Finarfin. The random generator was a tad cruel by not giving me any boosts to strength.

I'm guessing because of the 0 strength, the plan is to select a non-melee build? Which build would be the best?

The starting details for this character are at the following ladder link:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=22972

Any tips for this character is appreciated, but I don't think the character reaches 250 feet.

EDIT: Upon further reflection, it seems that Basil's stealth singer build might be the best build to go for this character (the start involves adding 8 perception points, then getting Keen Senses and Listen and dump the rest on stealth points). I still will probably die before I can get the song of silence if I follow this path, but I honestly don't have any better ideas on how to distribute exp.

[DrWho42]

i would dig seeing videos of the n00b's playthrough

[Pete Mack]

Bad strength isn't fatal to melee builds, the way bad dex or con is. I am no Sil expert, but the ladder hs a number of reasonably successful examples. E.g:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=22913

[Quirk]

Solid starting stats for a pacifist build. Here's one I won with:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=21310

It's easier if you aren't actually committed to pacifist of course, you do have some shot at killing birds and other perils that can cut pacifist runs short very early on.

I wrote up a bit of an after action report / pacifist guide here:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8757

however, be warned that pacifists are very squishy, I lost many before getting a win. You need to get quite a strong feel for the stealth mechanics to do well with them, and get used to avoiding situations and backing off to the stairs.

Assuming you're looking for a win rather than a pacifist victory, I would recommend picking up a bow early on at the very least so you can take down birds and other low HP fast moving targets which can mess up your game; an assassin approach with Assassination, Finesse and Subtlety should also work well but be aware such builds often founder when they bite off more than they can chew.

You don't want more Evasion than you need to get Sprinting, IMO, Stealth is your main investment for much of the early game. Later you will want lots and lots of Song, Lorien at high Song is almost game breaking.

Subtlety based builds want a good shortsword, ideally 1lb 1d8, or artifact dagger with sharpness. They don't need much strength at all. Original Sil deathblades are better still if you can manage 2 strength, but acquiring them is hazardous for a stealthy character with little evasion.

[wobbly]

That's actually my preferred stat layout for a pacifist. Quirk gave one of his with Elbereth & here's one of mine that used a staff of slumber instead:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18794

You'll see the start is like Basil's except I took no starting stealth preferring to have dodging in case a wolf noticed me, the way they dart in & out gives you some lee-way to back away & close a door if your evasion is high enough.

There's some other things that'll work such as singers & assassins. Grace 6 is beautiful on a singer & an assassin can eventually do damage with no str, though they are hard to get right. Your judgement on what you can & can't kill on an assassin needs to be spot on.

Pete Mack mentioned melee & str 0 is certainly do-able just harder. Early on you need a 2-hander to be doing damage & when you compare: A glaive w/ str 0 is 2d9, a longsword with str 3 is 2d8. So you're like a more normal warrior minus a shield, its harder. However by endgame you have enough melee to work with a light weapon & subtlety when they come in to their own. Basically a hard start that gets strong late game.