Sil-Q 1.4.1 release

[Quirk]

As a by-the-way, I'm introducing a new 1 lb weapon in the next release. Throwing Axes are being deprecated in favour of Hand Axes: a 5d1 1 lb weapon (so 5d2 with Str 1). This is a little on the weaker side, but with Power becomes quite reasonable. I had already removed damage side bonuses on rings and gloves to tone down Smithing a little.

There are quite a few new things in my development release. For Melee lovers, I think I have a more interesting and elegant skill to replace Anticipate; Smite lets you roll maximum damage on your first attack of the turn when you're wielding a two handed weapon, at the cost of taking an additional turn to recover (i.e. your opponents get to move twice when you attack). The high damage overwhelms armour and kills quickly, but being committed for an extra turn comes with some danger.

[Quirk]

i'm a little confused here. 1d7 is the default. are you adding the str bonus?

Yes, sorry for being unclear. I mean that the 1d7 1.5 lb shortsword does 1d8 damage with the bonus, a 1d7 2 lb shortsword 1d9. Without any reduction from Finesse or Subtlety, the latter is straightforwardly better if you can muster the second Str (though worse than a longsword or curved sword in most practical contexts). They're close to the same with Finesse and Subtlety.

[seraph]

Also, making the default shortsword 1d9 instead of 1d8 makes it a bit better for non-stabbing usage.

i'm a little confused here. 1d7 is the default. are you adding the str bonus?

[Quirk]

On more pondering, it's definitely better to tighten smithable weight to match drop weight.

Smithing outside drop weight is rare, and almost only used to make vanilla weapons broken in some way. It will be easier to balance things if I don't have to worry about it and I can afford to make weight changes cheaper if I'm less worried extreme weight will make things broken.

Also, making the default shortsword 1d9 instead of 1d8 makes it a bit better for non-stabbing usage.

I guess this is it for 1 lb shortswords.

[Quirk]

Well, Sil's "simple" mechanics come with a cost: outside certain parameters they break hard. There's a sweet spot you can optimise weights, to hit and damage dice around, but only so many weapons can exist in it and be recognisably different from each other. Letting people add damage sides and alter weights can easily swing things into broken territory and soon you have vanilla weapons far better than already strong artifacts and game balance turns upside down.

Another solution might be to prevent item weight being altered by smithing beyond the 2/3 or 3/2 ratios from the base weight that are used as min and max weights on weapon drops and moving shortsword base weight to 2 lb. This also fixes the brokenness at the cost of making other items less flexible in smithing than before.

You said also you had some other thoughts I think?

[seraph]

at a difficulty of 14 (sum of it's parts) a 1d8 1lb short sword is not easy to smith at 100'. it's achievable, but even if you did it you'd probably regret having sunk so much xp into smithing. shortswords seem to take a long time to get good in my experience.

lets say you have a 4 grace feanor. you take 7 points of smithing for 2800 xp. plus armoursmith and enchant to make +2 gloves to get up to 14 plus weaponsmith. 1500 + 2800 = 4300 xp. 4 + 7 + 1(affinity) + 2 = 14 smithing

you have very little xp left for melee/evasion let alone finesse and subtlety.



i'll concede that perhaps shortswords are op in the late game though; i'm still experimenting. even so, i'm not sure i like this solution.

[Quirk]

Just to throw some numbers out there:
Currently a 1d6 dagger is average damage 3.5 per die, on a crit base of 3.5 (with Finesse and Subtlety).
A 1d8 1.5 lb shortsword is average damage 4.5 per die, on a crit base of 4.5.
Shortsword gains a little because its first die is higher, though the dagger is more reliably close to average because it rolls more dice i.e. less likely to leave a barely damaged opponent.

With the old crit base of 4 this is somewhat equivalent to a 2 lb 1d11 deathblade (ignoring the melee bonuses) or a 1 lb 1d9 shortsword.

A 1 lb 1d8 shortsword gains slightly more than an extra 10% average damage. This is slightly better than having a 1d12 2 lb weapon in Sil 1.3. It's very strong. It feels wrong to have it easily smithable at 100'.

Part of the goal has been to make daggers actually useful. I think at present they are, though the vanilla 1d5 ones are probably unsavable.

[Quirk]

should it not be the automatic pick? what's the competition, longswords? without rings of damage, deathblades and momentum, a 1d8 1lb shortsword is pretty much the only viable option. but at a difficulty of 19, one would probably be better off putting points into melee, stealth, perception etc. and grabbing the first 1d8 shortsword you find. heck it might even have an ego. the goal is to boost smithing after all.

With Finesse having shaved off an extra point on crit cost since the Sil 1.3 days (before you could take your crit base from 7 to 4, now it's 7 to 3), you really don't need rings of damage, momentum, etc for stabbers to be extremely effective.

Poison, artifact and 1d6 daggers are actually quite decent now. Artifact shortswords are acceptable to good. A 1d8 1.5 lb shortsword is still good, but slightly worse average damage than a 1d6 poison dagger.

Currently I'm not terribly concerned with boosting Smithing - it's showing up on 2/3rds of winners as is and I think that's a little on the high side.

[seraph]

Yes. The way Subtlety and Assassination work make the 1d8 1 lb shortsword the best weapon in the game for stabbers, notably better than the artifact shortswords. Basically it scales to be unhealthily good when you're getting large numbers of critical hits based on weight. Making it trivial to smith would make it an automatic choice on every stabber.

should it not be the automatic pick? what's the competition, longswords? without rings of damage, deathblades and momentum, a 1d8 1lb shortsword is pretty much the only viable option. but at a difficulty of 19, one would probably be better off putting points into melee, stealth, perception etc. and grabbing the first 1d8 shortsword you find. heck it might even have an ego. the goal is to boost smithing after all.

[Quirk]

hello! i've been on a hiatus from sil for a while. i have some thoughts on the new update, most of them positive. for now though, just a possible bug report.

smithing a vanilla shortsword is 0 difficulty
(+0,1d8) 1.5lbs = 4
(+0,1d7) 1lbs = 10
(+0,1d8) 1lbs = 19!

is this intentional? this doesn't seem to be mirrored in other items.

Yes. The way Subtlety and Assassination work make the 1d8 1 lb shortsword the best weapon in the game for stabbers, notably better than the artifact shortswords. Basically it scales to be unhealthily good when you're getting large numbers of critical hits based on weight. Making it trivial to smith would make it an automatic choice on every stabber.

[seraph]

hello! i've been on a hiatus from sil for a while. i have some thoughts on the new update, most of them positive. for now though, just a possible bug report.

smithing a vanilla shortsword is 0 difficulty
(+0,1d8) 1.5lbs = 4
(+0,1d7) 1lbs = 10
(+0,1d8) 1lbs = 19!

is this intentional? this doesn't seem to be mirrored in other items.

[Quirk]

Looks like there's some multiple threads going on but just wanted to say thank you for keeping up development! For the changes, I do like the staff change a lot (and keeps staffs in line with a horn change a few years back iirc).

Haven't really noticed the phantoms playing, but I generally go with high evasion/melee so they've probably just melted running into them. Like Scatha mentioned in that other thread I think they should become lowercase 'w's (which might also give them some instructional value in that they're demonstratably not worm masses).

This is sensible, and I think I shall do this.

Don't really play archers so can't comment on the skills. Blessing looks.. weird, but in a pretty thematic way. For fear archers? Fletchery might be a little plain (it's pretty much +3 archery early on and tapers off in the endgame with ego arrows becoming more abundant), and it does overlap a bit with smithing +3 arrows. Might be a decent dump for the free ability for non-archer elves?

Pretty much what I envisaged it being. The dedicated archer can probably invest better, but I think this is something that is more exciting for the less dedicated archer early game than Careful Shot and Precision were, and makes the free skill a bit more of a choice (I see some people now reaching automatically for Rout for the quality of life gained in thinning fleeing orcs, and I see this competing against that).

Starting with the sword equipped is either way for me; it being on the floor is a cool little piece of immersive storytelling (and instructive to newer players), then again I very seldomly have to restart the early levels so I can see it being repetitive starting out.

I would kind of like to have the player equipped more thematically, as it's never been clear to me why precisely they are entering Angband unarmed, and unless I actually introduce orc slavemasters (the letter 'o' unfortunately has a lot of weight to carry here and restricts my theming) it seems to make more sense to have them at least be carrying their own shortsword.

However, that involves some amount of balancing and deciding what makes for a reasonable opening, and while I put that off for now I did cave a little bit to the mpa-derived desire for speedy descent.

[Infinitum]

Looks like there's some multiple threads going on but just wanted to say thank you for keeping up development! For the changes, I do like the staff change a lot (and keeps staffs in line with a horn change a few years back iirc).

Haven't really noticed the phantoms playing, but I generally go with high evasion/melee so they've probably just melted running into them. Like Scatha mentioned in that other thread I think they should become lowercase 'w's (which might also give them some instructional value in that they're demonstratably not worm masses).

Don't really play archers so can't comment on the skills. Blessing looks.. weird, but in a pretty thematic way. For fear archers? Fletchery might be a little plain (it's pretty much +3 archery early on and tapers off in the endgame with ego arrows becoming more abundant), and it does overlap a bit with smithing +3 arrows. Might be a decent dump for the free ability for non-archer elves?

Bit mixed on the sunlight spots. It's a decent little addition, but takes something from the doom and gloom atmosphere. Then again it does teach light level mechanics and breaks monotony some, which is nice. I do dislike the color though, I find bright colors in general do detract from the otherwise muted grey- and brownscale aesthetics (this also goes for a lot of other things of course, like glyphs of warding and certain monsters), and the yellow can be dificult to spot. Bright starlight could be an alternative and is a little more evocative of Tolkien imo (the sun and moon being the newfangled knockoffs of proper illumination that they are).

Starting with the sword equipped is either way for me; it being on the floor is a cool little piece of immersive storytelling (and instructive to newer players), then again I very seldomly have to restart the early levels so I can see it being repetitive starting out.

[Quirk]

Nice release! Thanks! Note that the fixed 50k xp option has a hidden xmas gift, it will grant you another 50k xp in certain circumstances.

Thanks for the heads up. Will be fixed for the next release.

[Thraalbee]

Nice release! Thanks! Note that the fixed 50k xp option has a hidden xmas gift, it will grant you another 50k xp in certain circumstances.