Sil-Q balancing toward first official release

[Quirk]

Gradually things are inching toward a Sil-Q official release.

I'd like to collect people's thoughts on balance now things have had a while to bed in. In particular I'd like to ask:

1) Is Alchemy too strong at its current position? If so, how much stronger is it than it should be - would it be better if it cost 5, 6 or even 7?
2) Song of Challenge: too good, or doesn't do enough?

People who have opinions on other Sil-Q changes, please feel free to share these also.

If anyone's curious what my current opinion is on the various skills that have been added or changed, I'm posting them in the next message. I would use spoiler tags but the spoiler tags seem to have mysteriously disappeared from the forum.

[Quirk]

Melee:
Knock Back: Seems fine lower down.
Subtlety: Can be very strong for a stealth build since its boost, but if that build's too good I don't think it's the culprit.
Impale: Bit of a niche skill, but plays nicely with polearms. Fine, but suffers from not increasing damage against single strong enemies.
Anticipate: Not had much feedback yet. I think it's quite strong.
Whirlwind Attack: Strong against crowds. Fine, but also suffers from not increasing damage against single strong enemies.

I'm a bit concerned that things may have swung too far and longswords are a little too feeble when it comes to damage output at present.

Archery
Rout: Happy with the job it's doing right now. Good for Majesty archers or brawler elves who don't want to invest too much into archery.
Crippling Shot: Not a lot of data, it has been taken on winning builds, no-one seems to be complaining. Seems fine.

Archery in general seems like it's quite strong - two of the three Morgoth kills make heavy use of it.

Stealth
Cruel Blow: Appears to be doing the job it's designed to do. Fine.
Coup de Grace: New on the Stealth tree. No real data. Should be quite powerful.

Stealth is mostly in a good place I think.

Perception
Alchemy: Starting to get the impression this may do too much. I confess I reach for it quite early myself.
Forewarned: Niche skill. Probably wouldn't be overpowered at a lower price point or if given a bit of a bump.

Perception was always a strong tree. Alchemy may be too convenient though.

Will
Channeling: Happy with this, it's seeing some use. Good.
Strength in Adversity: Still a little weak, but probably doesn't need a boost.
Vengeance: Happy with this too, it's a strong ability.

Hardiness and Critical Resistance are still front-runners I think but Vengeance does enough to be worth spending XP on.

Smithing
Weaponsmith: Especially good for archers. Not a great deal of extra utility for melee fighters. Has its place, but maybe still a little weak for melee.
Armoursmith: Even with nothing else, being able to make fine armour early on is strong. Scales well later.
Jeweller: There is something of a gap in useful stuff between 7-8 Smithing and 14-16 Smithing. Strong with Artifice.
Enchantment: Differs on an item by item basis; some suffer from not having sufficiently exciting enchantment options.
Artifice: +Grace and +Smithing still allows some progressively broken stuff to be crafted. Much of what I'm seeing is +stats and +damage, particularly on jewellery. This is okay, but I feel that the artifacts being created are a little duller than the promise of Artifice suggests. Would appreciate opinions.
Expertise: Not used a lot, a bit of a niche skill, but probably also fine. Possibly could use a boost.

Smithing still suffers from the "smithing kit" problem, where it's much more effective to carry items that boost Smithing than actually spending XP on raising the skill - and not knowing when the next forge will be makes it harder to commit to saving XP to spend on it.

Song
Song of Challenge: I have conflicting reports. My own experience is that it's good when you're in control of the situation, but doesn't help you out a great deal when you're not (except against archers and scouts/assassins).
Song of Delvings: I think this is a much more interesting effect than Song of Aule, but am still not sure if it does enough to justify where it is on the tree.
Song of Lorien: Early on I boosted this a little in response to claims that it needed to be more viable. With more experience of it, I think it's really quite powerful enough and I may undo the boost. It's been key to a couple of Morgoth kills.
Song of Thresholds: Not widely used, but I've tried it enough to be convinced it's reasonably powerful. I think it's fine.
Song of Valour: Not a lot of data. I think it's very powerful in the endgame and more likely to be overpowered than underpowered.
Song of Mastery: Also boosted a little bit when Lorien was boosted. My main concern with it is that it seems largely to be taken in the throne room. Not sure how to rectify that; it should be good elsewhere too.

The general design of the Song tree - where you can't stack the utility of your picks - is problematic, but I think it would take a radical redesign to fix.

[seraph]

my thoughts:
stealth
dex: i'd still like to see this point lowered.

perception
alchemy: one thing you could do is remove the ability to see curses and id staves and horns (see will and smithing below)
forwarned: this could use a small buff i think

will
channelling: this already ids staves and horns
vengeance: this seems good, but i would probably only take it via smithing. I still don't like strength in adversity. and will abilities in high demand.
this may make polearms more viable.

smithing
weaponsmith/armoursmith: you could add the ability to see curses on the appropriate items through these abilities.
jeweler: that gap of useful stuff is real. i recently had a character at 900' with +10000 exp pooled at an enchanted forge. and i still choose not to invest further into smithing. i think i already had a +1 con amulet and +1 str and/or dex rings. i made stuff at the beginning and some feanorian lamps and that was pretty much all.

[wobbly]

Re longswords: I wouldn't worry too much, they're the strongest weapon for 90% of the game, you may just struggle for damage late game (or not depending on the build). To see how good go 2/5/4/3 on feanor make or wizard mode a 2lb defender longsword & double deflection shield. Finesse & parry then pump melee & evasion. Or simpler just a 3 str fingolfin with a 3lb longsword. They are the most solid reliable weapon & hit through kemen fine with rakuo-bane. You need reasons *not* to use longswords even on a dwarf.

[saeniel]

Stupid question, but is Sil-Q is Sil from:

http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/

or I miss something?

[Quirk]

Stupid question, but is Sil-Q is Sil from:

http://www.amirrorclear.net/flowers/game/sil/

or I miss something?

Sil-Q is a fork of Sil that continues development.

See http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8816 or if you just want the download, https://github.com/sil-quirk/sil-q/r.../tag/v1.3.2-q2.

https://github.com/sil-quirk/sil-q/releases gives a complete list of changes in chronological order, and http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-browse.php?v=Sil-Q is a separate ladder.

Focus is on:
- replacing underpowered skills
- replacing overpowered skills (on the basis that makes the rest of the skills on the same tree underpowered)
- removing or upgrading items that are generally useless in Sil
- making Morgoth significantly harder to kill

There are a few other tweaks along the way: new artifacts, new uniques, a new enemy, and various ease of use improvements (some of them ported over from mpa-sil, a different fork). Smithing has had many little fixes and rebalances, but one of the biggest is adding guaranteed forges at 500' and 900'.

[saeniel]

Oh Jesus, great news for me!
Thanks!

By the way, I understand, this game is rogue-like, but what about sound content?
I'm music producer and sound designer, maybe it will be great to add some ambient background to emphasize the atmosphere of Angband fortress. Or make some sounds for monsters, when using (r)ecall.
Please, let me know what you think. I'm big fan of J. R. R. Tolkien and Sil, so I'm ready to start work anytime.

[Quirk]

Oh Jesus, great news for me!
Thanks!

By the way, I understand, this game is rogue-like, but what about sound content?
I'm music producer and sound designer, maybe it will be great to add some ambient background to emphasize the atmosphere of Angband fortress. Or make some sounds for monsters, when using (r)ecall.
Please, let me know what you think. I'm big fan of J. R. R. Tolkien and Sil, so I'm ready to start work anytime.

So this is a good question.

Bill Peterson was looking in this thread at re-enabling the graphics as well - http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=8812 - and what I'm going to write really applies to both graphics and sound here.

Four or five months back I was quite deep into Sil-Q development, and contemplating grand plans to deeply re-engineer the level generation and grouping of enemies - having cave portions with spiders and bats, and tunnelled portions with orcs and trolls and barracks and armouries. Going ahead with this would I think make Sil-Q very much into its own game rather than a tweaked version of Sil. I've kind of drawn back from that a little bit though; I had a few health issues and was low on energy to pour into the project, and I came to the conclusion that I am a little shy of spending a lot of my downtime developing for something with a very small audience, and I'm afraid a Sil fork looks like being quite a niche interest.

So my current intent is to continue balancing toward an official version, get everything into a nice tidy state with a manual and then see in a few months whether I want to develop it further. However, what I'm developing is not Sil - proper Sil is half's game, and if he comes back and wants to take it in a very different direction from my changes, that's up to him. He hasn't said anything at all regarding Sil-Q so far. With that in mind, any change being made to Sil-Q might not be there in Sil in the long-term, and so I'm very hesitant to suggest anyone else should spend a significant amount of time adding to it. This is especially true as I am not myself fully committed to continuing to shape Sil-Q into something substantially new.

That said, I feel it's likely half would be more than happy for people to add nice graphics and sound to Sil, but I don't feel I can speak for him on this. If you can contact him and ask you may get a more useful answer.

I hope this is helpful. If you want to talk at greater length, drop me a private message.

[saeniel]

I'm gonna contact Bill right now.
All I want is to make Sil even better than it is. Doesn't matter vanilla or your fork.
Great concept, but it needs development. If Bill refuse my offer, we can work on Sil-Q together. Also, I'm Android-developer so I'm pretty familiar with programming

[bel]

Subtlety

I tried out Sil-Q. I'm playing a Noldor Feanor stealth stabber. Here's the dump.

  [Sil-Q 1.3.2-q Character Dump]

 Name   Gaininn       Age    2,169       Str   2 =  1  +1
 Sex    Male          Height   7'3       Dex   6 =  4  +2
 Race   Noldor        Weight   181       Con   5 =  4  +1
 House  Feanor                           Gra   5

 Game Turn   12,849   Melee  (+15,1d8)   Melee       15 =  8  +6      +1
 Exp Pool     2,374   Bows    (+8,1d9)   Archery      8 =  0  +6  +1  +1
 Total Exp   30,874   Armor [+13,4-16]   Evasion     13 =  9  +6  -2
 Burden        94.8                      Stealth     22 =  8  +6  +3  +5
 Max Burden   144.0   Health     49:49   Perception  10 =  5  +5
 Depth         650'   Voice      49:49   Will         9 =  4  +5
 Min Depth     550'                      Smithing    12 =  6  +5      +1
 Light Radius     5                      Song        13 =  8  +5

 You are one of several children of an archer from the house of Feanor.
 You have light grey eyes, straight black hair, and a fair complexion.






  [Equipment]

a) a Shortsword of Gondolin (+0,1d7) [+1] {@w3} 1.5 lb
   It slays orcs and trolls.  
b) a Shortbow (+1,1d7) 2.0 lb
   It can shoot arrows 13 squares (with your current strength).
c) a Bloodstone Ring of Accuracy (+2)
d) a Beryl Ring of Dexterity <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It sustains your dexterity.
   
e) an Ivory Amulet of Constitution <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It sustains your 
   constitution.  
f) a Feanorian Lamp of Brightness
   It burns brightly, increasing your light radius by an
   additional square.  
g) Leather Armour of Stealth [-1,1d4] <+3>
   It improves your stealth by 3.  
h) a Cloak of Stealth [+1] <+2>
   It improves your stealth by 2.  
i) a Kite Shield of Protection (-2) [+0,1d8] {@w7}
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
j) a Dwarf Mask of Brilliance [-2,1d2]
   It provides resistance to fire.  It lights the dungeon around
   you.  
k) a Set of Gloves of Strength <+1>
   It increases your strength by 1.  
l) The Pair of Greaves of Orodreth [-1,1d2] <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It provides resistance to 
   fire.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
m) 98 Arrows
   They can be shot 13 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 21 Arrows (+3)
   They can be shot 13 squares (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) a Dark Green Herb of Rage
b) 2 Fragments of Lembas
c) 6 Murky Brown Potions of Orcish Liquor
d) a Sky Blue Potion of Clarity
e) 3 Dark Blue Potions of Antidote
f) a Golden Potion of Elemental Resistance
g) a Yellow Potion of Strength
h) a Pale Green Potion of Constitution
i) a Yew Staff of Sanctity (3 charges)
j) a Beech Staff of Understanding (used 6 times)
k) a Maple Staff of Self Knowledge (2 charges)
l) a Jade Ring of Warmth
   It provides resistance to cold.  
m) a Golden Ring of Venom's End
   It provides resistance to poison.  
n) a Coral Amulet of Regeneration
   It speeds your regeneration (which increases your hunger
   while active).  
o) a Set of Gloves of the Forge <+2>
   It improves your smithing by 2.  
p) a Pair of Greaves of Free Action [-1,1d2]
   It grants you freedom of movement.  
q) 2 Daggers (Poisoned) (+1,1d5) 1.0 lb
   They are branded with venom.  It can be thrown effectively
   (11 squares).  
r) 3 Daggers (Poisoned) (+0,1d5) 1.5 lb
   They are branded with venom.  It can be thrown effectively
   (11 squares).  
s) a Shortsword (+0,1d7) [+1] {@w2} 1.0 lb
t) a Longsword of the Feanorians (+0,2d6) [+1] <+1> {@w1} 2.5 lb
   It increases your dexterity and grace by 1.  It makes you
   encounter more dangerous creatures (even when not worn).  
u) a Battle Axe of Doriath (-3,3d4) 3.5 lb
   It slays wolves and spiders.  It does extra damage when
   wielded with both hands.  
v) a Battle Axe of Nargothrond (-3,3d4) 5.5 lb
   It slays dragons and raukar.  It does extra damage when
   wielded with both hands.  
w) a Shovel (-3,2d2) <+1> 6.0 lb
   It improves your tunneling by 1.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  


  [Abilities]

Finesse
Subtlety
Blocking
Assassination
Opportunist
Focused attack
Concentration
Armoursmith
Jeweller
Enchantment
Song of Silence
Song of Lorien


  [Enemies]

  2 / 10  Wolf                                    
  0 /  2  Tanglethorn                             
  3 / 15  Orc                                     
  1 /  2  Grimhawk                                
  3 /  8  Orc scout                               
 17 / 18  Spider hatchling                        
  0 /  2  Blue serpent                            
  0 /  6  Brood spider                            
 12 / 50  Orc soldier                             
  0 / 24  Madthorn                                
  7 /  7  Gorcrow                                 
 25 / 49  Orc archer                              
  3 / 16  White wolf                              
  1 /  5  Red serpent                             
  (seen)  Gorgol, the Butcher 
  6 / 22  Orc warrior                             
  3 /  8  Sword spider                            
 30 / 43  Crebain                                 
  1 /  3  Mewlip                                  
  0 /  1  Orc thief                               
  0 /  2  Nightthorn                              
  3 / 11  Mountain troll                          
  1 /  3  Tattered wight                          
  0 /  3  Orc champion                            
 10 / 27  Easterling warrior                      
 19 / 22  Hummerhorn                              
  1 /  2  Orc captain                             
  4 / 16  Warg                                    
  1 /  3  Dark serpent                            
  5 /  9  Whispering shadow                       
  1 /  9  Distended spider                        
  3 /  3  Twisted bat                             
  3 / 13  Snow troll                              
  1 /  5  Barrow wight                            
  2 /  7  Giant                                   
  (slain) Uldor, the Accursed 
  (seen)  Aldor, the Risen King 
  1 /  4  Easterling spy                          
  1 /  1  Shadow bat                              
  3 /  6  Sulrauko                                
  4 /  5  Fire-drake hatchling                    
  6 / 11  Werewolf                                
  3 /  3  Shadow spider                           
  0 /  1  Shadow                                  
  2 /  6  Sapphire serpent                        
  2 /  5  Ringrauko                               
  1 /  1  Cave troll                              
  3 /  3  Cat warrior                             
  1 /  1  Amethyst serpent                        
  0 /  1  Kemenrauko                              
  0 /  1  Spider of Gorgoroth                     
  1 /  1  Adamant serpent                         
  0 /  1  Lesser vampire                          


  [Notes]

Gaininn of the Noldor
Entered Angband on 1 Apr 2018

   Turn     Depth   Note

    422    100 ft   (Armoursmith)
    422    100 ft   (Enchantment)
    521    100 ft   Made a Set of Gloves of the Forge <+2>  0.5 lb
    642    100 ft   Made a Cloak of Stealth [+1] <+2>  2.0 lb
    773    100 ft   Made a Kite Shield of Protection (-2) [+0,1d8]  6.0 lb
    777    100 ft   (Blocking)
    786    150 ft   (Focused attack)
    791    150 ft   (Finesse)
    868    150 ft   Encountered Gorgol, the Butcher
  1,345    250 ft   (Assassination)
  3,169    250 ft   Fell into a chasm
  4,289    200 ft   Made a Dwarf Mask of Brilliance [-2,1d2]  6.0 lb
  4,626    200 ft   (Jeweller)
  4,785    200 ft   Made a Feanorian Lamp of Brightness  1.0 lb
  4,931    200 ft   Made an Ivory Amulet of Constitution <+1>  0.1 lb
  5,198    200 ft   Made a Pair of Boots of Softest Tread [+0,1d2] <+2>  2.0 
                    lb 
  8,023    450 ft   Encountered Uldor, the Accursed
  8,246    450 ft   (Opportunist)
  8,339    450 ft   Slew Uldor, the Accursed
 10,492    500 ft   Made a Pair of Boots of Nimbleness [+0,1d1] <+1>  2.0 lb 
 10,634    500 ft   Made a Set of Gloves of Strength <+1>  0.5 lb
 10,697    500 ft   Made a Golden Ring of Venom's End  0.1 lb
 10,832    500 ft   (Concentration)
 10,942    500 ft   (Subtlety)
 11,148    550 ft   (Song of Silence)
 12,144    600 ft   Entered the Tomb of the King
 12,388    600 ft   Encountered Aldor, the Risen King
 12,389    600 ft   Found The Pair of Greaves of Orodreth
 12,628    650 ft   (Song of Lorien)



  ['Score' 013087151]

Subtlety seems really powerful in Sil-Q with the increase in reduction to 3 (from 2 in normal Sil). I realize that Momentum no longer exists, but do light weapons really need a boost?

[Quirk]

I tried out Sil-Q. I'm playing a Noldor Feanor stealth stabber. Here's the dump.

  [Sil-Q 1.3.2-q Character Dump]

 Name   Gaininn       Age    2,169       Str   2 =  1  +1
 Sex    Male          Height   7'3       Dex   6 =  4  +2
 Race   Noldor        Weight   181       Con   5 =  4  +1
 House  Feanor                           Gra   5

 Game Turn   12,849   Melee  (+15,1d8)   Melee       15 =  8  +6      +1
 Exp Pool     2,374   Bows    (+8,1d9)   Archery      8 =  0  +6  +1  +1
 Total Exp   30,874   Armor [+13,4-16]   Evasion     13 =  9  +6  -2
 Burden        94.8                      Stealth     22 =  8  +6  +3  +5
 Max Burden   144.0   Health     49:49   Perception  10 =  5  +5
 Depth         650'   Voice      49:49   Will         9 =  4  +5
 Min Depth     550'                      Smithing    12 =  6  +5      +1
 Light Radius     5                      Song        13 =  8  +5

 You are one of several children of an archer from the house of Feanor.
 You have light grey eyes, straight black hair, and a fair complexion.






  [Equipment]

a) a Shortsword of Gondolin (+0,1d7) [+1] {@w3} 1.5 lb
   It slays orcs and trolls.  
b) a Shortbow (+1,1d7) 2.0 lb
   It can shoot arrows 13 squares (with your current strength).
c) a Bloodstone Ring of Accuracy (+2)
d) a Beryl Ring of Dexterity <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It sustains your dexterity.
   
e) an Ivory Amulet of Constitution <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It sustains your 
   constitution.  
f) a Feanorian Lamp of Brightness
   It burns brightly, increasing your light radius by an
   additional square.  
g) Leather Armour of Stealth [-1,1d4] <+3>
   It improves your stealth by 3.  
h) a Cloak of Stealth [+1] <+2>
   It improves your stealth by 2.  
i) a Kite Shield of Protection (-2) [+0,1d8] {@w7}
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
j) a Dwarf Mask of Brilliance [-2,1d2]
   It provides resistance to fire.  It lights the dungeon around
   you.  
k) a Set of Gloves of Strength <+1>
   It increases your strength by 1.  
l) The Pair of Greaves of Orodreth [-1,1d2] <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It provides resistance to 
   fire.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
m) 98 Arrows
   They can be shot 13 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 21 Arrows (+3)
   They can be shot 13 squares (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) a Dark Green Herb of Rage
b) 2 Fragments of Lembas
c) 6 Murky Brown Potions of Orcish Liquor
d) a Sky Blue Potion of Clarity
e) 3 Dark Blue Potions of Antidote
f) a Golden Potion of Elemental Resistance
g) a Yellow Potion of Strength
h) a Pale Green Potion of Constitution
i) a Yew Staff of Sanctity (3 charges)
j) a Beech Staff of Understanding (used 6 times)
k) a Maple Staff of Self Knowledge (2 charges)
l) a Jade Ring of Warmth
   It provides resistance to cold.  
m) a Golden Ring of Venom's End
   It provides resistance to poison.  
n) a Coral Amulet of Regeneration
   It speeds your regeneration (which increases your hunger
   while active).  
o) a Set of Gloves of the Forge <+2>
   It improves your smithing by 2.  
p) a Pair of Greaves of Free Action [-1,1d2]
   It grants you freedom of movement.  
q) 2 Daggers (Poisoned) (+1,1d5) 1.0 lb
   They are branded with venom.  It can be thrown effectively
   (11 squares).  
r) 3 Daggers (Poisoned) (+0,1d5) 1.5 lb
   They are branded with venom.  It can be thrown effectively
   (11 squares).  
s) a Shortsword (+0,1d7) [+1] {@w2} 1.0 lb
t) a Longsword of the Feanorians (+0,2d6) [+1] <+1> {@w1} 2.5 lb
   It increases your dexterity and grace by 1.  It makes you
   encounter more dangerous creatures (even when not worn).  
u) a Battle Axe of Doriath (-3,3d4) 3.5 lb
   It slays wolves and spiders.  It does extra damage when
   wielded with both hands.  
v) a Battle Axe of Nargothrond (-3,3d4) 5.5 lb
   It slays dragons and raukar.  It does extra damage when
   wielded with both hands.  
w) a Shovel (-3,2d2) <+1> 6.0 lb
   It improves your tunneling by 1.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  


  [Abilities]

Finesse
Subtlety
Blocking
Assassination
Opportunist
Focused attack
Concentration
Armoursmith
Jeweller
Enchantment
Song of Silence
Song of Lorien


  [Enemies]

  2 / 10  Wolf                                    
  0 /  2  Tanglethorn                             
  3 / 15  Orc                                     
  1 /  2  Grimhawk                                
  3 /  8  Orc scout                               
 17 / 18  Spider hatchling                        
  0 /  2  Blue serpent                            
  0 /  6  Brood spider                            
 12 / 50  Orc soldier                             
  0 / 24  Madthorn                                
  7 /  7  Gorcrow                                 
 25 / 49  Orc archer                              
  3 / 16  White wolf                              
  1 /  5  Red serpent                             
  (seen)  Gorgol, the Butcher 
  6 / 22  Orc warrior                             
  3 /  8  Sword spider                            
 30 / 43  Crebain                                 
  1 /  3  Mewlip                                  
  0 /  1  Orc thief                               
  0 /  2  Nightthorn                              
  3 / 11  Mountain troll                          
  1 /  3  Tattered wight                          
  0 /  3  Orc champion                            
 10 / 27  Easterling warrior                      
 19 / 22  Hummerhorn                              
  1 /  2  Orc captain                             
  4 / 16  Warg                                    
  1 /  3  Dark serpent                            
  5 /  9  Whispering shadow                       
  1 /  9  Distended spider                        
  3 /  3  Twisted bat                             
  3 / 13  Snow troll                              
  1 /  5  Barrow wight                            
  2 /  7  Giant                                   
  (slain) Uldor, the Accursed 
  (seen)  Aldor, the Risen King 
  1 /  4  Easterling spy                          
  1 /  1  Shadow bat                              
  3 /  6  Sulrauko                                
  4 /  5  Fire-drake hatchling                    
  6 / 11  Werewolf                                
  3 /  3  Shadow spider                           
  0 /  1  Shadow                                  
  2 /  6  Sapphire serpent                        
  2 /  5  Ringrauko                               
  1 /  1  Cave troll                              
  3 /  3  Cat warrior                             
  1 /  1  Amethyst serpent                        
  0 /  1  Kemenrauko                              
  0 /  1  Spider of Gorgoroth                     
  1 /  1  Adamant serpent                         
  0 /  1  Lesser vampire                          


  [Notes]

Gaininn of the Noldor
Entered Angband on 1 Apr 2018

   Turn     Depth   Note

    422    100 ft   (Armoursmith)
    422    100 ft   (Enchantment)
    521    100 ft   Made a Set of Gloves of the Forge <+2>  0.5 lb
    642    100 ft   Made a Cloak of Stealth [+1] <+2>  2.0 lb
    773    100 ft   Made a Kite Shield of Protection (-2) [+0,1d8]  6.0 lb
    777    100 ft   (Blocking)
    786    150 ft   (Focused attack)
    791    150 ft   (Finesse)
    868    150 ft   Encountered Gorgol, the Butcher
  1,345    250 ft   (Assassination)
  3,169    250 ft   Fell into a chasm
  4,289    200 ft   Made a Dwarf Mask of Brilliance [-2,1d2]  6.0 lb
  4,626    200 ft   (Jeweller)
  4,785    200 ft   Made a Feanorian Lamp of Brightness  1.0 lb
  4,931    200 ft   Made an Ivory Amulet of Constitution <+1>  0.1 lb
  5,198    200 ft   Made a Pair of Boots of Softest Tread [+0,1d2] <+2>  2.0 
                    lb 
  8,023    450 ft   Encountered Uldor, the Accursed
  8,246    450 ft   (Opportunist)
  8,339    450 ft   Slew Uldor, the Accursed
 10,492    500 ft   Made a Pair of Boots of Nimbleness [+0,1d1] <+1>  2.0 lb 
 10,634    500 ft   Made a Set of Gloves of Strength <+1>  0.5 lb
 10,697    500 ft   Made a Golden Ring of Venom's End  0.1 lb
 10,832    500 ft   (Concentration)
 10,942    500 ft   (Subtlety)
 11,148    550 ft   (Song of Silence)
 12,144    600 ft   Entered the Tomb of the King
 12,388    600 ft   Encountered Aldor, the Risen King
 12,389    600 ft   Found The Pair of Greaves of Orodreth
 12,628    650 ft   (Song of Lorien)



  ['Score' 013087151]

Subtlety seems really powerful in Sil-Q with the increase in reduction to 3 (from 2 in normal Sil). I realize that Momentum no longer exists, but do light weapons really need a boost?

Subtlety looks really good when things are going well; your enemy is asleep and you're attacking with a massive bonus and doing many crits.

Subtlety is much less fun when things aren't going so well - when you've been spotted and you've got two or three enemies surrounding you. A shortsword like the one your character is wielding starts effectively two crits down on a two-handed battle axe with 3 strength. That's a lot of melee to make up even at 4.5 points per crit, and you need to be consistently hitting your third or fourth crit before you're doing better than the battle axe would from the same roll.

The initial stab is usually pretty epic with Assassination and Focused Attack, and if you're picking off low-HP foes, fairly reliable. It is still possible to roll relatively low: assuming a best-case scenario on this character here, you're effectively attacking at +42 vs -5 on the initial stab when prepared against a sleeping enemy (I think?), but with a 20 vs 1 roll going against you, +28 gets you only 6 crits for a nice but not monstrous 7d8; it's possible to roll only 20-30 points of damage, which is very likely not enough to kill a werewolf outright. Following up and ending the werewolf is significantly harder as it has very similar melee and evasion scores and if you find yourself facing several aware werewolves things will get a lot tougher.

Original Sil had deathblades and damage rings as well as Momentum, which made lower numbers of crits more dangerous; with Song of Slaying, Subtlety could also be quite potent in the throne room. Subtlety has to carry more weight by itself now.

Song of Lorien changes the dynamic, and arguably gets quite overpowered at high song scores, but I think the issue there is more Song of Lorien than Subtlety.

[bel]

Subtlety

One clarification: I have a (+0, 1d7) 1.0 lb shortsword as well, so the crits occur on multiples of 4, not 4.5.

Let's compare it to vanilla Sil with the same shortsword, but with Momentum, so you'd do (+0, 1d9), with criticals every 5 points vs (+0, 1d8) with criticals every 4 points in Sil-Q.

I look at it like this. If, on average, you roll "X" on the combat roll (difference with the monster roll is included in this calculation), the average number of criticals you get is "X/4" in Sil-Q vs "X/5" in Sil. The difference is X/4 - X/5 = X/20. This is an (X/20) / (X/5) or 25% increase over original Sil. This is a HUGE boost.

In contrast, Momentum only increases damage by 1/8, which is only half as much.

I suppose damage rings no longer exist in Sil-Q, which also make a difference. Still, it's not easy to find a damage ring until very deep into the game.

Of course, looking at averages is not the whole story, but they give a rough idea.

[Quirk]

One clarification: I have a (+0, 1d7) 1.0 lb shortsword as well, so the crits occur on multiples of 4, not 4.5.

Let's compare it to vanilla Sil with the same shortsword, but with Momentum, so you'd do (+0, 1d9), with criticals every 5 points vs (+0, 1d8) with criticals every 4 points in Sil-Q.

I look at it like this. If, on average, you roll "X" on the combat roll (difference with the monster roll is included in this calculation), the average number of criticals you get is "X/4" in Sil-Q vs "X/5" in Sil. The difference is X/4 - X/5 = X/20. This is an (X/20) / (X/5) or 25% increase over original Sil. This is a HUGE boost.

In contrast, Momentum only increases damage by 1/8, which is only half as much.

I suppose damage rings no longer exist in Sil-Q, which also make a difference. Still, it's not easy to find a damage ring until very deep into the game.

Of course, looking at averages is not the whole story, but they give a rough idea.

Yes, it's a substantial boost.

However, in original Sil, it's more likely that you take Subtlety for a Momentum deathblade with a decent to-hit modifier; a 1d9 2 lb deathblade with Momentum can be doing 1d13 of damage every 6 points, and deathblades were usually paired with damage rings. 1d7 shortswords would definitely be considered underpowered for use with Subtlety in Sil.

Early game, even in Sil-Q, many skilled players prefer to assassinate with an axe. A battle axe is likely 3d8 or 3d9 depending on strength. If we consider a 3d9 3lb battle axe, it does 3d9 of damage on making contact, and a further d9 every 10 points.

At the point the 1d8 shortsword has 3 criticals - 12 points of Melee advantage - the battle axe is only one short of getting its first, which takes it to 4d9. In fact, the battle axe is clearly superior until the shortsword wielder beats the opponent's evasion by 16 points. In original Sil, the 1 lb shortsword wielder had to beat the opponent's evasion by 20 points to keep up with the battleaxe.

We also haven't considered things a battle axe wielder might like to spend their 1500 XP on instead of Finesse and Subtlety, such as Power and Charge; the break-even point moves on some way further when such considerations are in the picture.

In a straight-up fight, then, Subtlety is only a better approach if you have much more Melee than your opponent has Evasion. Luckily Assassination and Focused attack allow large temporary Melee bonuses, but if the damage done is not enough to kill outright then the stabber is in for a rough time. Songs can do a lot to fix this; however, if you can effectively keep something permanently asleep with Song of Lorien while you stab it, it doesn't really matter if you're using a shortsword with Subtlety, a battle axe or a toothpick.

[Quirk]

It should be noted that even with the existence of deathblades and damage rings, Subtlety was not over-popular in Sil 1.3:

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?p=118825&highlight=Subtlety#post118825

Note that it's about half as popular as Assassination on the winners list, sandwiched between Knock Back and Eye for Detail.

[Pete Mack]

How about concentration as a partner to subtlety? Does is pay off?