Stealth hunter help

[vulsuck]

I've been scouring the web for info on Sil (and watching Debo's helpful videos) but I've never been this deep before and I could use some advice.

I've been doing pretty well with my perception/stealth/archer build, but I'm concerned that I'm spreading myself too thin. Song of silence and the perception abilities have served me really well, but I don't know where to go from here. Should I pump song for better song of silence? Do I need song of sharpness for the throne room? I'm assuming more stealth and archery would be good in general.

  [Sil 1.3.0 Character Dump]

 Name   Carth         Age      803       Str   2
 Sex    Male          Height   6'8       Dex   7 =  4  +1      +2
 Race   Noldor        Weight   167       Con   4
 House  Finarfin                         Gra   4

 Game Turn   19,447   Melee  (+16,1d8)   Melee       16 =  0  +7  +1  +8
 Exp Pool     1,566   Bows   (+23,2d8)   Archery     23 = 15  +7      +1
 Total Exp   47,666   Armor [+19,6-15]   Evasion     19 = 11  +7  +1
 Burden       122.1                      Stealth     18 = 11  +7
 Max Burden   144.0   Health     38:41   Perception  16 =  9  +4  +2  +1
 Depth         900'   Voice      41:41   Will         9 =  5  +4
 Min Depth     750'                      Smithing     6 =  2  +4
 Light Radius     2                      Song         7 =  3  +4

 You are one of several children of a bard from the house of Finarfin.
 You have light grey eyes, wavy golden hair, and a fair complexion.






  [Equipment]

a) The Shortsword of Amrod (+1,1d7) [+1] <+2> 1.5 lb
   It improves your stealth and perception by 2.  It grants you 
   freedom of movement.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
b) a Longbow of Nargothrond (+0,2d6) 3.0 lb
   It slays dragons and raukar.  It can shoot arrows 20 squares
   (with your current strength).
c) a Marble Ring of Evasion [+1]
d) a Golden Ring of Dexterity <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It sustains your dexterity.
   
e) an Obsidian Amulet of Constitution <+0>
   It increases your constitution by 0.  It sustains your 
   constitution.  
f) a Brass Lantern (5599 turns)
g) Studded Leather of Stealth [-2,1d5] <+1>
   It improves your stealth by 1.  
h) a Cloak of Protection [+1,1d1]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
i) a Round Shield of Deflection [+1,1d3]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
j) a Helm of Clarity [-1,1d3]
   It provides resistance to confusion, stunning, and 
   hallucination.  
k) a Set of Gauntlets [+0,1d1]
l) a Pair of Greaves of Free Action [+0,1d2]
   It grants you freedom of movement.  
m) 54 Arrows
   They can be shot 20 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 35 Arrows (Poisoned)
   They are branded with venom.  They can be shot 20 squares
   (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) 8 Thorny Herbs of Rage
b) a Dark Green Herb of Healing
c) a Grey Herb of Restoration
d) 4 Fragments of Lembas
e) 7 Flasks of oil
f) a Clear Potion of Miruvor
g) 11 Murky Brown Potions of Orcish Liquor
h) 2 Golden Potions of Clarity
i) 6 Grey Potions of Healing
j) 3 Copper Speckled Potions of True Sight
k) 6 Vermilion Potions of Slow Poison
l) 4 Dark Blue Potions of Quickness
m) a Crimson Potion of Strength
n) a Silver Staff of Freedom (used 1 time)
o) a Twisted Staff of Sanctity (4 charges)
p) an Ivory Staff of Understanding (7 charges)
q) a Bloodstone Ring of Frost
   It provides resistance to fire.  
r) a Dragon Tooth Amulet of Grace <+0>
   It increases your grace by 0.  It sustains your grace.  
s) a Shadow Cloak of Warmth [+3] <+2>
   It improves your stealth by 2.  It provides resistance to 
   cold.  It creates an unnatural darkness.  
t) a Mattock of Belegost (-5,5d3) <+3> 14.0 lb
   It improves your tunneling by 3.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  
u) 24 Arrows of Piercing {piercing}
   They cut easily through armour.  They can be shot 20 squares
   (with your current strength and bow).
v) 55 Arrows (+3)
   They can be shot 20 squares (with your current strength and bow).
w) 64 Arrows
   They can be shot 20 squares (with your current strength and bow).


  [Notes]

Carth of the Noldor
Entered Angband on 1 Aug 2017

   Turn     Depth   Note

      0     50 ft   (Focused attack)
      0     50 ft   (Concentration)
    762    100 ft   (Weaponsmith)
    822    100 ft   Made a Longbow (+0,2d5)  2.0 lb
    883    100 ft   Made a Mattock (-5,5d2) <+2>  11.0 lb
    893    100 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
  1,226    150 ft   (Precision)
  2,066    200 ft   Encountered Gorgol, the Butcher
  2,079    200 ft   Slew Gorgol, the Butcher
  2,894    250 ft   (Dodging)
  2,894    250 ft   (Sprinting)
  3,721    250 ft   Fell through a false floor
  5,044    350 ft   Found The Shortsword of Amrod
  6,196    350 ft   (Disguise)
  6,730    400 ft   (Flaming Arrows)
  6,788    400 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
  6,798    400 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
  6,808    400 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
  7,708    450 ft   (Dexterity)
  8,366    450 ft   Encountered Othrod, the Orc Lord
  8,559    450 ft   Slew Othrod, the Orc Lord
  9,276    450 ft   Encountered Ulfang the Black
  9,293    450 ft   (Keen Senses)
  9,331    450 ft   Slew Ulfang the Black
 10,348    500 ft   (Inner Light)
 12,311    550 ft   Encountered Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
 12,347    550 ft   Destroyed Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
 12,807    550 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
 12,817    550 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
 12,910    600 ft   (Vanish)
 12,910    600 ft   (Exchange Places)
 13,799    600 ft   (Versatility)
 16,205    650 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
 16,215    650 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
 17,209    700 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
 17,219    700 ft   Made 24 Arrows  2.4 lb
 18,179    800 ft   Fell through a false floor
 18,392    850 ft   Encountered Tevildo, Prince of Cats
 18,397    850 ft   Slew Tevildo, Prince of Cats
 18,472    850 ft   Encountered Umuiyan, the Doorkeeper
 18,474    850 ft   (Song of Silence)
 18,483    850 ft   (Dexterity)
 18,484    850 ft   Slew Umuiyan, the Doorkeeper
 18,665    850 ft   Encountered Oikeroi, Guard of Tevildo
 18,670    850 ft   Slew Oikeroi, Guard of Tevildo
 18,718    850 ft   Found The Greatsword 'Calris'
 19,253    850 ft   (Master Hunter)
 19,447    850 ft   Fell through a false floor



  ['Score' 018080553]

[wobbly]

Fair bit depends on how you want to handle the throne room. Are you planing on fighting Morgoth? Trying to kill him? or are you trying to sneak it?

[vulsuck]

Well, I'm not really sure. I don't think I'd be comfortable in melee combat in the throne room. And I doubt I could take on a horde of guys with my bow, so I guess I'm planning on sneaking.

[vulsuck]

So I died on 950 stupidly because I woke up a vault with Dagorhir and an ancient amethyst serpent and then got caught by a Gwathrauko while running away. In retrospect, maybe I should have gone with more stealth and picked up listen so I'd be able to mitigate my 2 light radius.

[Patashu]

Song of the Trees is worth considering if you're short on light, it can give a large bonus to light radius weighed against tanking your stealth.

[wobbly]

yeah listen would of served you a fair bit better than say Versatility. The extra range alone is a big boost.

[ripforareason]

I would get song of sharpness on every archer. it's too useful to not have. plus if you're going to fight Morgoth, you need Song of Slaying anyway. The downside to getting it is that your stealth abilities will start to seem like a waste of experience. Your character was probably good enough to get at least 1 sil from Morgoth otherwise, though. You probably would have wanted listen on a stealth character, for sure.

I've never been able to "do" stealth myself, it always gets too frustrating when I know I can build a character to just kill everything.

[Patashu]

I've never been able to "do" stealth myself, it always gets too frustrating when I know I can build a character to just kill everything.

Is this true even for Edain?

I'd love to see the next version of Sil include starting settings or optional challenges (like the switches for ironman, no artifacts, etc) that make different builds optimal for maximizing winrate (harder enemies so stealth is optimal, worse floor trash so smithing is optimal, and so on).

[ripforareason]

Yep, all my Edain 3Sil + V wins were low-stealth melee brawlers. I think I get 6 for Opportunist -> Rapid Attack late in the game, but I usually have heavy enough armor that it doesn't do a whole lot. I thought Hador and Haleth weren't too awful, but Beor was kind of hard. Sometimes you might just randomly die, but this is part and parcel of playing an Edain.

This is equally true of stealth, imo. If you get cornered and are weaker than usual, and you're already an Edain, you are screwed.

[taptap]

fwiw, i never had archers sing song of slaying in the throne room. it can work well, but it isn't required. and with piercing arrows available, i believe it should be possible to do without song of sharpness as well, unless you need it to get at the sils. this is the meanest thing about playing archers, that sometimes you can kill V but can't get at the Sils after the first. i did isolate v in these runs, either by assassinating most ppl around w/ stealth + high perception (older version, may not work now) or by using extreme light and song of elbereth and then go at lonely v with concentration (+ song of sharpness). these are probably not the most effective approaches to do the throne room as archer, but you can play w/ more than one archetype and still win.

[wobbly]

Morgoth isn't immune to poison or fire, so a good enough bow with poison/flaming arrows can break through irregardless of slaying or sharpness, it's just going to be slower. I watched Mitze do the throne room & he had enough evasion that Morgoth simply wasn't hitting, which is harder to do if you've gone stealth, but it's certainly possible to get archery to the point where you can just bombard Morgoth point blank.

[ripforareason]

fwiw, i never had archers sing song of slaying in the throne room. it can work well, but it isn't required. and with piercing arrows available, i believe it should be possible to do without song of sharpness as well, unless you need it to get at the sils. this is the meanest thing about playing archers, that sometimes you can kill V but can't get at the Sils after the first. i did isolate v in these runs, either by assassinating most ppl around w/ stealth + high perception (older version, may not work now) or by using extreme light and song of elbereth and then go at lonely v with concentration (+ song of sharpness). these are probably not the most effective approaches to do the throne room as archer, but you can play w/ more than one archetype and still win.

my archery characters always had slaying and sharpness, sometimes they would kill V in ~10 turns. Then I would get Versatility with the XP from Morgoth and use that to extract the Sils, and then hope I had Angrist for when my first weapon breaks. My strategy is to go into the secret passage, build up a bit of slaying, then go find Morgoth and shoot him to death.