Can someone help clarify how invisibility detection works?

[protopulse]

I've had quite a few promising runs end around 450 ft - 500 ft now. Usually, smart and careful play involving manipulation of doors, monster AI, and line of sight can get me to those depths fairly consistently. But the reason it ends at those depths is because of snow trolls, giants, and whispering shadows, the last of which is by far the most frustrating to deal with.

I see from the manual, "difficulty of perceiving invisible enemies = opponent’s will + 2 per square of distance between you." "See Invisible grants a +10 bonus to seeing otherwise invisible enemies." And keen senses "provides a +5 bonus to spotting invisible€™ enemies." Now I don't know how much see invisible points you need to actually see whispering shadows, but obviously more is better.

Last game I had a brass lantern (2 light radius), keen senses, and a staff of light. I activated the staff repeatedly right next to a whispering shadow, and I still could not see him. I don't usually get keen senses, but I made an exception this game (grabbed it when I first noticed the whispering shadows there since I had experience floating around). Thought it would be enough, but it wasn't. This was near the doorway to a room full of whispering shadows. Somehow, after I cleared the adjoining room, the room I came from had been flooded with these things and I had no way to get out except by going downstairs (with around 70% of 400 FT still unexplored).

There has only been one game so far where I have been able to see them consistently, and that was when I found an early helmet of brilliance along with a lantern later on to give me 3 light range. So, I need 3 light range by 400 FT to see them, else I need to run?

They ignore armor, get a bonus to hit because of invisibility, and multiply if you can't one shot them. I'm guessing the best way to one shot them is to wield a 2Hander and learn charge? Even then you have to guess where they are because all you see is pitch black.

Anyways, some advice appreciated here. Thanks for reading.

[wobbly]

whispering shadows are not invisible. Keen senses/see invisible doesn't help, only listen or bigger light radius (also reduces their damage). The light staves only work once, the square is either lit or not. (dark breathers & wights dark spell is the exception here).

You should still be able to see a single whispering shadow with 2 light. Multiple shadows next to each other stack darkness.

Anyway things that help:
Stealth (to stop them multiplying)
Diving past them (my favourite method)
doors
glowing items (particularly final rest weapons)
easterling warriors (or anything that carries a light)
herbs of rage & enough melee to hit them without sight (dangerous)
song of trees

[protopulse]

Hm, so it sounds like I haven't met any true invisible monsters yet if creatures that generate darkness do not count as being invisible. Listen seems a pretty steep investment just to be able to see whispering shadows, but I might give it a try anyways since those things give me so much trouble.

From the sound of things, for the most part, I'm actually approaching them correctly. It's just mostly greediness getting in the way of rationality sometimes. i.e. I want to be able to explore every inch of every floor to maximize experience and loot. I don't really care about my turn count or min depth, and am not even thinking about Morgoth and ascension. I just want to be able to make it a bit further than my last run each time, and for that to happen, I want to have as many consumables, gear, and experience as possible before I move on to the next floor. Yet, that same thought process actually end up hurting my chances of survival. I try a slightly different approach to whispering shadows each time I encounter them, but more often than not, it just ends up with me losing 30+ HP in one turn because I stepped into a black mass that actually had 3-5 whispering shadows right next to it. Like I'm in this phase where I'm still trying to learn the nuances to each monster and how to counter them, but I'd just die and learn very little about these whispering shadows before doing so.

In DCSS, I can close the door, walk away, then come back and clear the areas I missed. In Sil (and Angband), the second you leave a level, everything on that level is gone forever. Even so, I'll have to teach myself to just close the door and walk away and give up whatever is behind those things then.

Edit: How does stealth help stop their multiplying? Or do you mean it'll help you assassinate them before they are able to multiply?

[wobbly]

Edit: How does stealth help stop their multiplying? Or do you mean it'll help you assassinate them before they are able to multiply?

They don't multiply if they're asleep

[Patashu]

> i.e. I want to be able to explore every inch of every floor to maximize experience and loot.

There's no point in thinking like this, since you can take the staircase anytime you want to create a new level full of EXP and loot that doesn't have whispering shadows on it. (AFAIK the only penalty for taking stairs is that if you do it very often in a short period of time, it will crumble and drop you down a floor.)

[protopulse]

If forges and artefacts were on parts of the level that was still unexplored, and you left the level, are they gone permanently? e.g. you've only seen the guaranteed 100 ft forge. there was no forge on 200 ft, and you're now on 300 ft. there's a forge on the level but you missed it. do you now have a reduced likelihood of seeing forges for the rest of the game?

[Psi]

Artefacts will be lost forever. There is no limit on the number of forges, but the game will guarantee a forge every so many turns from the previous one being generated if I remember correctly. Therefore if you miss one, then that clock is reset. Forges can still be generated in the meantime of course.

In terms of whispering shadows, I believe keen senses does actually help as it allows you to see enemies on the edge of your light radius. Inner light also helps.

[protopulse]

Hm, so other than the loss of artefacts, it's not too big of a deal. Honestly haven't seen many artefacts yet, so I'm not sure how much they matter.

Can't believe I missed inner light. That sounds exactly like what I was looking for. Will is a tree I haven't dove too much into yet. I usually put 3-4 points early on to help resist fear from Mewlips, drain from tattered wights (although probably smarter to just leave them alone), and confusion from madthorns. It also gives me easy access to curse breaking and mind over body, but inner light's the next one over so it shouldn't be too much of an investment to grab it if it means I can survive my encounters with whispering shadows.

[Patashu]

Also consider Song of the Trees. It's easy to get +2 light radius from it, even +3 if your song+grace is good. That's a bigger benefit than Inner Light's effective +1.
Other tricks:
1) Glowing items on the floor (fenorian lamps, slay weapons with what they slay nearby, etc) will contribute to light levels and help counter darkness, and it stacks with having them equipped and so on.
2) If the room is lit, that counts as +1.

[Philip]

I prefer to go for Lorekeeper rather than Curse Breaking. There's some marginal utility you don't get from Lorekeeper, but otherwise, Curse Breaking is pretty expensive for no particular gain.

Since from Will I already take Inner Light, Hardiness, Critical Resistance, Poison Resistance (most of these are non-negotiable) and Constitution if I can get it, even on Fingolfin, Curse Breaking would cost 2500 XP in total, and together with Mind Over Body, which you really shouldn't have to be using, would cost 5500 XP by the time you finish up your skills.

[Pete Mack]

The right thing to do with Whispering Shadows is run like hell if they get away from you and Keen Senses+Inner Light isn't enough. A Feanorian lamp or 3 if you find some Mithril is very much worthwhile too.

[wobbly]

Something that's not immediately obvious with a smith is that you can make a +0 grace version of the amulet of blessed realms for 11 pts. The 2 grace seems expensive but lembas restores it & light is a big deal, you want as much as you can get.

[protopulse]

I prefer to go for Lorekeeper rather than Curse Breaking...Curse Breaking is pretty expensive for no particular gain.

Since from Will I already take Inner Light, Hardiness, Critical Resistance, Poison Resistance (most of these are non-negotiable) and Constitution if I can get it

Ah, yea. I just meant, I like to pump a little will so I only have to spend 500 XP if I wield ID something that is cursed and don't have the remove curse staff (sanctity I think?) or I find myself low on food. For emergencies basically.

I never got too far into the will tree, but those look good. I actually grab lorekeeper and loremaster quite frequently. ID game's just too much of a pain. The XP from IDing my inventory pays for itself, and I don't have to risk wasting useful consumables with no gain or eating an herb of hallucination or something.

@Patashu Yea, I'll try to invest in song then. Mostly I've been playing archers, various styles of melee/evasion builds, and smithing builds. Will, stealth, and songs are the three trees I haven't tried out yet. I'm starting to get the sense hybrid characters are quite strong in Sil though, since XP cost ramp up the more you pump into a single skill or skill tree.

Wrt shadows, amulet of blessed realms only requires jeweller and enchantment, so that's another good route to go. You're right I end up eating lembas anyways. Probably I'll just start running from them more frequently from now on in general.

Edit: Been playing smithing builds lately where I start with 13 smithing (so I can craft a +2 ring of evasion, a +2 ring of accuracy, and a +0 amulet of blessed realm on my very first forge). Even found a mithril helmet of terror in my most recent game that I then smelt down into an early faenorian lamp. Died to werewolves since I didn't have rPois and eventually ran out of !slow poison, so I'll pump more will next game. Most of the difficulty in this build, I've found, is early on (50 - 200 feet), before my melee skills take off and I find that first forge. But the nice thing is, my troubles with whispering shadows are a thing of the past. I get lorekeeper on a helmet for my second forge, and just ignore the rest of the forges (to save turns and because I don't have much else that's worth crafting). I think the early investment in smithing's worth it though, considering how much those rings and amulets help in the mid game and how it saves me the experience needed to acquire loremaster and lorekeeper.

Tried the song build that Patashu suggested as well, but I've found that I don't really know how to utilize songs effectively yet. To make the most out of the experience investment, I grab song of slaying as well before trees. But the second I start singing, it feels like everything on the floor come to my location. Even with +4 or more slaying, I can't kill them all before they get to me. And there's no escape without say, a horn of blasting or exchange places skill so I just die then and there.