Request: Early Build advice

[Infinitum]

Haven't played heavy armor since forever. Usually when I do it's incidental with me aiming for the usual 20 points in evasion and finding quality hauberks or whatever. Likewise for twohanders I generally make do with sword and board until I can comfortably swap the shield for subtlety since I find hitting enemies is generally harder than penetration (with a swap greatweapon for the occasional statue).

Staying does look like the most appealing general purpose song now that you mention it though, and fits into the slaying-for-the-throneroom plan. 4300 xp at minimum for an effective +3 will and +[1d3] armour isn't necessarily better than the approximately +3 evasion that could have been by the midgame though.

Este I've tried to make work, but due to evasion and armor mechanics the amount of situations where enemies just slightly outattritions you over time (and you can't retreat) are too scarce to justify it imo. Poison resistance from the will tree is just so much less of a hassle to get.

Speaking of which, I did finally find a smithing build I like:

Feanor 3443, 9 points in Smithing + Jeweler to start with (4500 xp, 13 effective smithing) and rest into combat stats. Never add points to smithing again. Make +2 evasion/accuracy rings and an amulet of the blessed realm at the 100' forge. Put all available points into accuracy/evasion with the usual clutch ability detours once comfortable. After finding at least +2 worth of smithing/grace gear, pool 2200 xp and then make a +2 smithing hammer with masterpiece and danger. Find another piece of grace/smithing, some mithril, then at the next available forge make a (+2,2d5)[+2] Mithril Longsword with Sharpness and Danger, draining all of your smithing. With a riposte build this is a much better weapon than anything you can conceivably find ingame (Ringil/Celeg nonwithstanding) and can overcome even statue and morgoths defenses with ease.

The reason I like this sequnce is because it frontloads the xp expenditure (removing the guesswork of when forges will show up), the combat rings shores up the skill deficit early on and remain relevant well into the lategame. Surplus early forges can be used to smith light jewels and id jewelry (or feanorian lamps if one is lucky nough to find early mithril). One could fit an artifact feanorian lamp into the sequence, but it'd barely be better than a feanorian lamp of brightness anyhow and getting sharpness in the midgame is a gamechanger.

[wobbly]

Apologies for 5th post in a row.

Songs are too situational to be of use, sadly. Song of the Trees is a good alternative to the smithing splash in order to guarantee some light midgame, Lorien is useful for stealthy characters and Slaying gets good in the endgame. Mastery is for the most part a trap option for "optimal" smiths.

Is this because you tend to play high evasion? Song of staying is pretty damn good on a high protection/2hnder build. The difference is pretty noticeable if you tank a great drake without a shield + it pushes critical resistance up a notch & lets you use str boosters instead of sustains against the worst stat drainers etc. You don't need sharpness for throne room with enough str behind a big weapon, so it's a viable alternative.

Song of Este is a godsend against spiders on high protection character. I've always got it for free from the ring but it's possibly a reasonable choice if you can do without sharpness. Though there's plenty of ways to deal with them without.

[wobbly]

So got a Falathrim start which has made it to 400' so far & is looking pretty viable. I just didn't bother with any archery or melee & just concentrated on taking skills to avoid being cornered (e.g. sprinting & exchange places).

So 2 str (good for the long bow, good later for rapid fire on a short bow)
5 dex
3 con (nasty early but livable for an archer)
1 grace

7 in evasion + dodge + sprinting
the rest stealth, aim for exchange places
start building archery

keen senses & listen are great on an archer but so is focus/concentration. Up to you whether you think you can afford all 4 or just want a pair. hunter & bane are also going to be good. As you have sprinting I'd be more keen on wolf-bane then rauko-bane. Wolves are faster/more perceptive & you should end up with the stealth to just avoid rauko if the situation looks bad.

Edit: Almost forgot you'll want something for webs by a certain depth. However you're stronger then most archers so herbs of rage might be enough.

[wobbly]

So as no-one's posted a smithing build I'll give one I play a lot. It's the heavy armour thumper - switch - something else.

Power, high protection suits a smith early. You've got no skill anyway but easy access to decent armour. Late game it's nasty, both noise-wise and dealing with certain enemies, so as you descend you build your armour lighter, more evasive, sneakier.

I'll give it for a feanor smith (1/4/5/4) starting 5 melee + power, 4 evasion, 1 stealth/perception/will. You'll be able to pick up 500xp at 50-100' which will get you +2 forge gloves, mail of protection & +2 evasion round shield. The extra con is handy if you plan on draining itat a forge. The armour (& con) is great archer protection you can head straight to that depth without to much worry.

Melee: Aim at 10 with power (more later if switching to warrior)
Evasion: Aim at 9, crowd figthing, heavy armour use (more later for warrior)
Archery: 3+precision (more later for archer or just because you're a high elf)
Stealth: 3+disguise (more if blah, blah)
Perception: Focus/Concentration on warriors, keen senses/listen on sneakers
Will: Enough for annoyance monsters by depth (a luxury early game, vital late game)
Song: later as appropriate. If you're struggling just grab elbereth at struggle depth.
Almost forgot Smithing: Armoursmith, Enchant, Artistry, 7 pts. With a crown of grace, the gloves that'll get amulet of grace which'll get feanorian lamp of brightness.

Basically get as solid as you can, smith what you can and then switch. You may find with a stealth switch there's an ugly depth where things are hard to kill & you lack stealth. You'll need some tricks but the main one is don't hang round long, start diving quicker, pick something that'll keep you alive and put everything in to getting it.

Oh & ignore heavy armour thresholds. Stealth thresholds will matter more.

[wobbly]

Got a pacifist through today. A 0/4/3/6 Finarfin starting with listen, 1 stealth, 2 evasion + dodging. Felt pretty solid, a couple of advantages of going perception before stealth is: No dramas with alarm traps, less worries getting sandwiched or cornered. I'll just give the depths for the abilities so you can work out roughly how much you can afford:

0' Keen senses/listen/dodging
250' Disguise
300' Song of Elbereth
450' Lorekeeper/Loremaster/Song of Silence
800' Sprinting
950' Dexterity
950' Song of Trees/Power (for the crown)
850' Channeling
950' Majesty
1000' Grace
800' Leaping
450' Freedom (You'll need 1 str for rubble otherwise, though rage herbs work)

[wobbly]

Songs are too situational to be of use, sadly. Song of the Trees is a good alternative to the smithing splash in order to guarantee some light midgame, Lorien is useful for stealthy characters and Slaying gets good in the endgame. Mastery is for the most part a trap option for "optimal" smiths.

It's worth noting that light gives melee & evasion penalties to light sensitive enemies & song of trees is cheap enough in voice to run near continuously in a fight. So if you grab trees early you wont be losing as much melee/evasion as it looks like (orcs & trolls are light senitive) & are in a much better position against things like shadows, late game spiders, wraiths(not sure if it drops their will for the specials, stunning them with a light staff definitely does). It'll cost you 1500 if your going the slaying+sharpness route, so it's only about a pt of melee/evasion long term.

[bron]

Here is my personal favorite: a "kill everything" build.
Noldor Feanor, stats 3443
Take 6 points of Melee, 6 points of Evasion, 2 points of Smithing.
On the first turn, buy the "Power" Melee ability.
At the first forge, take Weaponsmithing (free), and make a (3lb) longbow, and one batch of arrows.
If you have found some arrows, forge a mattock (remember to reduce the weight). If not, forge a second batch of arrows, and forge the mattock at the 2nd forge (if you haven't found one by that time). All other forge uses go to make more arrows.

The character only needs a small amount of additional Melee and Evasion during the early part of the game (e.g. down to 500ft), although you want to have an effective melee of *at least* 15 by the time you get to the cat warriors (600ft). Use experience to build Archery up to 7 and take Flaming Arrows (free), plus whatever other abilities you find useful (I always go for Loremaster, even before Flaming Arrows). Eventually, build Archery up to 10 and take Dexterity, then stop - you don't need more Archery skill than that.

The high strength (pus Power) allows the character to dish out a lot of damage. Probably the best weapon for this char is a 3d4 bastard sword, if you're lucky enough to find one. But the arrows hit hard too, even without Flaming.

Since this char will fight a lot, you'll want to have good armour. Definitely wear a Corslet. I can't stomach the melee penalty of a kite shield, but do use a shield of some sort. Wear gauntlets, and rings of protection. (Eventually you'll trade the rings of protection for rings of Damage and/or Strength, but you don't find those until late in the game.)

[seraph]

another useful ability for taptap's "hunter" build is song of elbereth. very cheap. very effective. i wouldn't consider myself experienced though; i haven't won yet. so take that how you will.

[PowerWyrm]

Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/user/silstreamer/videos

Obligatory: make MORE of these vids

[bagori nd]

a slight variant on Infinitum's I really like is 3443 Feanor.

the Con for Dex means you have to be a bit more careful in early game, but it's a good trade by late game. And you can get Jeweler for free.

two neat things about Jeweler and light that might not be obvious:
--) lesser jewels still give light when they're on the floor. this is great when you need that one extra point of light intensity to see something, e.g. if you're fighting shadow spiders with just a lantern.
--) +0 grace amulets of the blessed realm are reasonably easy to make and probably the best amulets you can get until ones with actual stat bonuses start dropping in the lower depths.

[debo]

Obligatory: https://www.youtube.com/user/silstreamer/videos

[Wisp412]

Thanks taptap, nikheizen, Infinitum and wobbly! I probably won't reply just to say thanks again to avoid clutter, but the advice is really appreciated!

[wobbly]

Slight variant on the above (nikheizen's), sacrifice 1 starting melee & evasion to start with 5 will & clarity. Good will saves against a bunch of annoying criters, stops trolls stunning you, makes murky brown potions a lot more useful.

Here's a trickier build: a polearm assassin. Details are for a feanorian artifact smith, but it's easier to do with a finarfin without smithing or just plain weapon smithing.
The point: Fun alternative to light weapon assassins. Polearms bigger damage dice require less criticals, so smaller melee outlay.
Start: 1/5/4/4, 4 in melee, 4 in evasion, 1 in stealth/perception/will. You'll need to clear 50' & part of 100' for 7 smithing + weaponsmith/enchantment.
1st Forge: Gondolin Greatspear, Longbow of radiance, dagger/quaterstaff or curved sword of doriath.
Key abilities: Focused attack, polearms mastery, assassination (charge + disguise will also work)

You're very weak till the 1st forge. Walls & doors are your stealthy friends. After the 1st forge pretty much terrorise any orcs & trolls, use the doriath weapon to warn against sword spiders & stay above easterling depth till you've fixed either melee/evasion or stealth. Concentrate on 1 or the other, I like stealth 1st but melee/evasion is more solid. I'd wait till after 4 stealth for assassination, the extra stealth is more important.

[Infinitum]

The above build pretty much. In general, the question isn't "what ability should I take" but rather "is this ability better than another point in evasion/melee"? Also remember that the "true" cost of any ability is the cost of the last ability you take in that paticular tree. For a point-by-point guide, my preferred build is:

*3353 Fingolfin
*5 Melee, 5 Evasion, 4 Smithing + Jewelsmith
*Make +1 Evasion/Accuracy rings and a Lesser Jewel (opens up inventory space) at the first forge. Additional forges are used to id "useless" jewelry for xp and eventually a pair Feanorian Lamps once you find mithril to melt.
*Only buff melee/accuracy until you have 8 or so of each.
*Then get up to 6 stealth, Assassination and Opportunist. This is a great quality-of-life ability in general and makes dealing with Archers less of a chore. Even this modest stealth investment will also make it easier to avoid stuff at a distance and sometimes stab unwary critters (eg Dragons) later on.
*Then go back to buffing melee and evasion for pretty much the entire game. Once you start encountering Wights you might want to buff Will up to hardiness (for the "free" ability and avoiding stat drain), once you encounter Sulraukar buff perception up to Keen Senses and eventually Rauko-Bane (this is enough to spot all invisibles enough of the time). I usually end up buffing will to the con point, but this is a low priority compared to more raw attack/dodge numbers.
*Dodge/Flanking once you have 10-12 melee/evasion (fighting in corridors will trap you as you enter cat/kemenrukar territory). Either Power or Finesse/Subtlety once you find an artifact weapon you like enough to build around (look for sharp weapons in general). Eventually get Follow-Through, Momentum and Strength if your weapon supports it (most do).
*Get Song of Slaying shortly before entering the throne room. It's situational, but the endgame has a few of those situations guaranteed. Rapid Attack sometimes shine here as well but pretty much needs you to use strength potions in order to penetrate armor consistently.

There are a few variations on the goodstuff builds; eg you can get Opportunist by way of Follow-Through rather than Assassination to save (but the occasional +10 stab is worth 1000 xp imo).

Smithing is wholly optional but pays for itself early on (the +1 rings usually hold up down to 5-600' or so), makes inventory management more bearable since you can ditch torches and ID junk jewelry early (and wearing a hunger ring allows you to start id'ing herbs earlier as well), and easier access to Lamps gets important later on. Well worth 1500 xp imo.

Archery is a good alternative to stealth/opportunist for killing flitterers and fleeing enemies. Usually I only get Flaming Arrows and eventually the Dexterity point for moar accuracy/evasion.

Songs are too situational to be of use, sadly. Song of the Trees is a good alternative to the smithing splash in order to guarantee some light midgame, Lorien is useful for stealthy characters and Slaying gets good in the endgame. Mastery is for the most part a trap option for "optimal" smiths.

[nikheizen]

Newbie Fingolfin
To hit dudes
3353 stats, 6 melee, 6 evasion to start. Only level melee and evasion until ~500'. After that take Dodging and Flanking.
Just hit dudes. Use corridors to take on foes one at a time until you are sufficiently buff to dance with flanking.