Balancing spears

[Derakon]

Serephina, thanks for pulling attention back to that.

It's more plausible that polearms are systematically weak, but I'm still not sure. We did balance them by looking at numbers, and spears should be some of the best weapons for STR 0-1 characters, and Glaives one of the best 2-handed weapons around STR 0-2. Polearm Mastery does give a strong boost to this.

Do many players play with low STR scores? It may be that polearms are targeting a niche audience, in which case it'd be expected that most players don't find them to be generally useful.

[taptap]

Thinking about critical hits, I played an early game with a 2lb spear today. They are as easy to make as 1lb shortswords, but you never find them due to throwing weapon streamlining.

[debo]

I use vanilla spears and glaives in the early game all the time, especially with 2strength characters. Glaives in particular are a lot better than most of the other heavy options, with bastard swords sometimes coming out on top (but not very often.)

I find glaives especially good on characters who aren't really melee-focused, and are just trying to bridge an awkward part of the build.

If we're looking for criminally useless items, I'd say the greataxe and most sceptres (even the ego ones) are a more obvious target. War hammers are close, but at least the damage-side fine-boosted ones can be insane if you have one of those strength-heavy characters, and momentum can be used to great effect there (instead of swinging a 12lb greataxe for about the same sides and fewer crits, and way worse to-hit.)

[debo]

Do many players play with low STR scores? It may be that polearms are targeting a niche audience, in which case it'd be expected that most players don't find them to be generally useful.

I think this is true. I'd be much more inclined to play low-strength characters more often if it didn't make inventory management totally awful.

I'd be interested to see how people play Sil if the weight limit was fixed across all characters / decoupled from strength entirely. I can't play 1-strength fencers/stabbers anymore mostly because carrying any swap weapons or armor is incredibly frustrating.

[bagori nd]

I think this is true. I'd be much more inclined to play low-strength characters more often if it didn't make inventory management totally awful.

I'd be interested to see how people play Sil if the weight limit was fixed across all characters / decoupled from strength entirely. I can't play 1-strength fencers/stabbers anymore mostly because carrying any swap weapons or armor is incredibly frustrating.

I'd be hugely in favor of this. I mostly play Str 3 elves, for whom weight is only occasionally an issue (and never an issue once I get my first strength increase around 700' or so). The game would be a bit more interesting/challenging for me if I had some hard choices that fell short of incredibly frustrating. Maybe if the limit were between Str 2 and 3?

(This would also invite an ability--presumably in the Will tree?--that would let you carry more.)

[nikheizen]

I think this is true. I'd be much more inclined to play low-strength characters more often if it didn't make inventory management totally awful.

I'd be interested to see how people play Sil if the weight limit was fixed across all characters / decoupled from strength entirely. I can't play 1-strength fencers/stabbers anymore mostly because carrying any swap weapons or armor is incredibly frustrating.

But then how will you carry the crown?
!Str gives an extra 400 to weight limit?

[Derakon]

But then how will you carry the crown?
!Str gives an extra 400 to weight limit?

What if carrying the crown just applied a flat penalty to your movement, as a special effect? The crown with its Silmarils has a special type of "weight" that no amount of muscles can help you overcome.

[bagori nd]

Good point. Maybe the trick is to keep tying the weight limit to strength but making each point have a smaller effect. The ability of REALLY strong characters to carry the crown (in some cases without slowing down!) is definitely worth retaining, IMO. But it could be retained if the crown was lighter (a svelte 100 lb., say) in proportion to strength's smaller impact.

edit: as a bonus, this would help preserve--in fact arguably enhance--Sil's verisimilitude. On reflection, decoupling the weight limit from strength entirely seems too Crawl-y for me: good for gameplay, maybe, but bad for immersion.

[wobbly]

I actually like the str limitations on weight as they enforce a light armour build on weak character (& also give a pt to plain armour smithing if you wish to wear mail at low str) . I actually had no trouble carrying a 2-hander of each slay at str 0 so I'm not sure where others are having issues with swap weapons. I did have to stick to light armour choices, dump staves I otherwise might of kept & couldn't keep multiple arrow stacks, but if I'd wanted to be a pack mule I would of grabbed more str.

I guess I'm saying the limitations are part of the fun of a str 0er. It's similar with being webbed at str 0, it can be a death sentence but it's also part of the challenge.

[Infinitum]

Now what I would really like to see would be almost all consumables replaced by words of power, with whatever few athelas/'Rage/!Liqour/swap jewelry left just fitting into your backpack (since it contains just enough provisions to justify the player not needing extra food nor fuel for the entire game).

No ability to cart around extra weapons nor armor in the inventory; the player has access to 2 1-and-a-halfhanders, a shield, a short sword/dagger/hatchet, 2 quiver slots and the amor on his body. Convenient ui and keyboard shortcuts allows the player to toggle shield use, wielding their weapon one or twohanded or swap weapons with the press of a key. Weapon cathegories are streamlined as versatile 1-and-a-halfhanders (given enough player strength) and throwing weapons are rightfully delegated to the quiver slots where they belong.

Sil Souls. Never coming to a store near you.

Now, since I can't code and have the nagging suspicion that the above probably isn't as good an idea as I'd like it to be; Spears anyone? They're pretty cool but can/should they be made more viable main weapons within existing design parameters?

[wobbly]

Depends. Are they ment to be a niche weapon or are they meant to compete with a sword or axe. 'cause right now I use them regularly but preference a bastard or longsword if I'm playing simple non-nonsense Sil. Heck in straight weapon camparisons I'd pick the bastard sword over an axe on a dwarf unless it's dramborleg.

[wobbly]

You know as infinitum has brought the tanget back to spears & I've somehow managed to waffle about axes I may as well mention that my biggest issue with axes & 1 & 1/2 handed spears is gauntlets of swordplay. It's The most common no downside gauntlets (not counting smithing). In a lot of in-game comparisons you're likely losing 2 evasion by not using a sword, a great spear (which loses a shield) or glaive (which loses a shield).

[Infinitum]

@Scatha & half; do you still have the design notes for the weapon classes? It'd be neat to see how you originally envisioned them before nagging along. =)

Agree on Axes for the most part, albeit mostly because I tend to go Subtlety lategame on all my recent characters anyway (and mostly play elves so there's that). I do like having an axe on hand for crit-resistant enemies lategame if I don't find a sharp weapon though. Mostly, I think heavy weapons in general could do with a weght reduction across the board. Maybe change Charge to a straight up to hit/to damage bonus to compensate (since it's pretty much the only way of getting 6+ strength unbuffed as is).

[debo]

I just played a polearm character for funsies and it felt really, really strong throughout: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18768

Most of this is probably "feanor", but the glaive was surprisingly versatile and the pass-turn mechanic came in handy in a number of situations.

It's too bad that polearm mastery is so expensive (given how many other melee abilities one probably wants) and that no one is going to see a vanilla glaive and say "oh hey polearm mastery is a great idea now." On the other hand, spending ~700 xp at most gets you a decent one right at 100', so there's that.

[Serephina]

I basically agree with debo with everything he said, but I had an odd thought: Would Polearm mastery make any sense in a different tech branch, eg stealth? Stealth already has a lot of fun alternate-prereqs going on that are tempting to build around.

edit: The inscirptions @w1 and @w2 on your weapons make me think you have a hotkey to swap between them, is that possible?