How to deal with the throne room and ascent (is grinding 950 a good idea?)

[Galen]

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18952

So, yeah, I did it (the grinding ) Well it wasn't too bad, really At least it's desirable to to conserve consumables while farming 950, which does add some tactical interest.

[Galen]

Just wanted to say that I've spent some time playing Angband, DCSS and Brogue and I've come to the conclusion that Sil really is the best roguelike. I see there is a new version, hopefully they nerfed Morgy a little

[Galen]

My impression is that haste from an item doesn't stack with potions of quickness. Is that so? If yes, that robe was pretty bad (for the throne room).

So I was reading some old posts on this forum and

In Sil, there are 4 possible speeds: 1, 2, 3, 4. This is a simple linear system with speed 3 being 3 times as fast as speed 1 etc. Standard speed is 2. Speed boosts and penalties are all +1 or -1 to speed. Player speed is capped to [1, 3] and most monsters are speed 2 or 3. Incredibly fast monsters are at 4. Potions of speed 'only' make you 50% faster than normal, which is still an insanely large boost. There is an incredibly small amount of permanent speed boost and most play throughs won't have it. Even if you do have it, it is not as amazing as it first appears, since it doesn't help with the most important battles where you would be at speed 3 due to potions anyway.

http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showpost.php?p=76471&postcount=43

So, yeah, should've equipped some real armor.

[Galen]

If you're going to melee the throne room without much stealth/vanish, you want to have song of slaying and herbs of rage. Walk to the middle of the throne room without breaking tension, wait for dudes to pool around you, buff, rage, and then sing slaying. The latter (I think) should break tension, and you can rack up a +40 melee bonus pretty quickly. Then wack Morgoth and use said melee bonus to get your sil as quickly as you can and GTFO.

Yeah, that's what I did, and it worked pretty well until Morgoth created a pit right under my dude. Which I totally didn't expect. But now I think that the upstairs would've been a much better place to fight. I don't know, but it seems very unlikely that pits can be created on the same tile as stairs. Also, the stairs are right next to a wall. And being close to stairs is also good for escaping. I think the next time I'll just copy the save file and experiment with it. Right now I'm playing mainline Angband, its actually more fun than I thought it would be

[debo]

I personally think the stealth route is way harder than the melee route, but I did get my first couple of wins that way so maybe it's not so bad.

If you're going to melee the throne room without much stealth/vanish, you want to have song of slaying and herbs of rage. Walk to the middle of the throne room without breaking tension, wait for dudes to pool around you, buff, rage, and then sing slaying. The latter (I think) should break tension, and you can rack up a +40 melee bonus pretty quickly. Then wack Morgoth and use said melee bonus to get your sil as quickly as you can and GTFO.

I do have a few videos of it on the silstreamer channel as other people have mentioned before.

[Galen]

Thank you, wobbly, I guess I'll try it next week (when I'll become less mad )

[wobbly]

Melee-ing Morgoth is the hard route & you'll have to spend some extra time scumming for good gear, xp etc. For a quicker time it's probably going to be easier to go stealth+song of lorien or stealth+staff of slumber. Here's one with the staff:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=18249

You'll see I'm just over 15k turns leaving the throne room. Pretty sure you could do it a lot quicker if you wanted to, I was ready about the time I found Dramborleg & just spent a little extra time making sure.

[taptap]

Yes. Unfortunately, I didn't save the character dump (because I was mad )


Yeah, the problem was not enough damage output to prevent myself from being surrounded. I really should've saved the dump. But, anyway... I had a deathblade 'Delmereth' and 30 melee (when buffed). And also 30 evasion, and song of slaying. And not a ton of armor (IIRC, 5-16 armor), because I found a robe of speed (that gives perma-haste, not sprinting). My impression is that haste from an item doesn't stack with potions of quickness. Is that so? If yes, that robe was pretty bad (for the throne room).
OTOH, that were two characters in a row that reached Morgy's room. The game itself doesn't seem difficult, but the throne room is not like the rest of it. I think the throne room is bad, and has a bad influence on other parts of the game (namely, the grinding on level 19). But maybe other people like it that way, I dunno.

Slow is 1, normal speed is 2, quick is 3, max speed is 4. Permahaste is always great, methinks, although I never had it. 30/30 is pretty good (if Delmereth is used with subtlety that is). Rage + song of slaying should make short work of almost everything in the throne room. Similar build in old version (with stronger song of sharpness): http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14760 - it made short work of Morgoth as well back then.

[Galen]

This is how Fingolfin died. I assume this was a melee char?

Yes. Unfortunately, I didn't save the character dump (because I was mad )

Strong freedom effects (song or staff) removes pits and rubble, climbing out of the pit is another option. Killing most escort before or while going for Morgoth in melee helps (rage) - at least you get out of the pit.

Yeah, the problem was not enough damage output to prevent myself from being surrounded. I really should've saved the dump. But, anyway... I had a deathblade 'Delmereth' and 30 melee (when buffed). And also 30 evasion, and song of slaying. And not a ton of armor (IIRC, 5-16 armor), because I found a robe of speed (that gives perma-haste, not sprinting). My impression is that haste from an item doesn't stack with potions of quickness. Is that so? If yes, that robe was pretty bad (for the throne room).
OTOH, that were two characters in a row that reached Morgy's room. The game itself doesn't seem difficult, but the throne room is not like the rest of it. I think the throne room is bad, and has a bad influence on other parts of the game (namely, the grinding on level 19). But maybe other people like it that way, I dunno.

[taptap]

Hmmm. Gave it another shot. I ended up in a pit (created by Morgy's earthquake), surrounded by monsters. So how should I deal with earthquakes. How does 'earthquake' work? Should I fight on the upstairs? I suspect pits cannot be created there.

This is how Fingolfin died. I assume this was a melee char?

Strong freedom effects (song or staff) removes pits and rubble, climbing out of the pit is another option. Killing most escort before or while going for Morgoth in melee helps (rage) - at least you get out of the pit.

[Galen]

Hmmm. Gave it another shot. I ended up in a pit (created by Morgy's earthquake), surrounded by monsters. So how should I deal with earthquakes. How does 'earthquake' work? Should I fight on the upstairs? I suspect pits cannot be created there.

[wobbly]

He's got listen from the helm & 20 perception. The ascent is usually pretty easy with listen. You just avoid Morgoth.

[debo]

That's exactly correct, Debo. I couldn't hit the crown hard enough. I know that problem could've been solved by finding a sharp weapon, or getting enough XP for the song; however, there wasn't anything sharp in the throne room, and not enough XP (but I didn't try to kill any monsters there before attacking Morgoth).

The song probably wouldn't have helped much, unless you invested in song above and beyond the min Sharpness requirement.

However, you do have quite a bit of strength -- adding a !strength to that and switching to a big weapon probably could have got you the sil.

Hmm, I hoped 30 stealth would be enough. My melee characters are not very interesting, for example one ran out of potions of quickness and died by ragequitting while adjacent to Morgoth.

30 stealth probably would have been very good for the ascent. If V sees you at any point though, you're going to be in trouble due to his slowing song. If you have a few !quick to get you out of it, that's helpful. Alternately, having more than one source of free action (or 10 more will) would help quite a bit there.

I think the songs have generally made the ascent even worse than it used to be, and it was IMO already the worst part of the game by far. (With the exception of the surface level, which is great fun.)

[taptap]

30 stealth is more than enough for the ascent. (You still would want vanish.) In your case I would have repeated 950 at least once to get a few strength potions and a suitable weapon (either sharp or large greatsword/axe to combine with song) to be confident to get the Sil, when you have the chance to do so, otherwise buffed will significantly, and then just tried to run with a single Sil.

With a hunter (stealthy archer) I would in an earlier version have tried to slowly kill Morgoths support and then go for him fully buffed with rapid fire on a maximised distance to fully leverage concentration (with song of sharpness + flaming sharp arrows / flaming poison arrows). You would want vanish to do so, but even then it is harder than it used to be. I probably would now play out hunters with Song of Lorien or channeling + staff of slumber in the throne room.

It is viable to combine archery with intimidation (good way to isolate Morgoth in the throne room - http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=2373) or Song of Slaying (like brawlers do) or just to have ridiculously high archery skill and good judgment (http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=13761).

[Galen]

How did you die? I dunno about your melee characters, but this one seems like it would have a difficult time getting cutting a silmaril from the crown without V pancaking you.

That's exactly correct, Debo. I couldn't hit the crown hard enough. I know that problem could've been solved by finding a sharp weapon, or getting enough XP for the song; however, there wasn't anything sharp in the throne room, and not enough XP (but I didn't try to kill any monsters there before attacking Morgoth).

This character would have had a horrific time on the ascent anyways. If you post some of your melee characters, maybe we can comment on those as well.

Hmm, I hoped 30 stealth would be enough. My melee characters are not very interesting, for example one ran out of potions of quickness and died by ragequitting while adjacent to Morgoth.