How does weapon weight help overcome protection ?

[Fendell Orcbane]

So my last character had both Calris and Aeglos...Calris was +18, i forgot the dice ) and Aeglos was (+22,1d16) but they both put out equal damage...yet Ancient serpents were laughing Aeglos off as were all the high protection monsters. Yet Calris was actually killing Kemrauko's once I got my Melee up to 16 or so. Why is that, I never noticed anything different in the combat rolls. I also feel like a straight Melee build will need a heavier weapon at some point to win, even if you have Demerlith and high Melee.
So what is the story ?

[debo]

Yes it's because ancient serpents are ridiculous.

Kemenrauko have pretty bad evasion and only 4d4 prot -- the ancient serpents are quite a bit more dodgy, and have 5d4 or 6d4. Heavy weapons are supposed to work, but they really mostly don't (unless you like getting breathed on a dozen times before finally killing one.)

Did you have charge?

[debo]

Also, I think sapphire S are the most common ones, which aeglos is incredibly bad against.

[taptap]

not sure why common serpents are a problem when you have both a fire-branded and a cold-branded weapon. if you play without abilities melee ends with a heavy weapon, yes, but imo you underestimate light weapons when combined with appropriate abilities (i.e. subtlety, assassination, slaying, concentration ...).

[debo]

appropriate abilities (i.e. subtlety, assassination, slaying, concentration ...).

Only the first two of those are reasonable to consistently use against ancient serpents, and only if you are lucky or have completely based your build around them. Subtlety is not exactly an ability that you take to deal with a specific threat.

[bagori nd]

Only the first two of those are reasonable to consistently use against ancient serpents, and only if you are lucky or have completely based your build around them. Subtlety is not exactly an ability that you take to deal with a specific threat.

I'd be interested to hear why you think this about Concentration. I feel like it helps my medium/heavy characters against serpents a lot.

[debo]

I'd be interested to hear why you think this about Concentration. I feel like it helps my medium/heavy characters against serpents a lot.

What is your con? How many times can you afford to whiff-whiff-whiff waiting to build up sufficient bonus while getting breathed on and elemental-bitten? I actually think charge is a much better option if you have a heavy weapon and a reasonable amount of base strength already, because at least then you can try to dart in and escape as necessary to retry (esp. with sprinting)

[taptap]

Only the first two of those are reasonable to consistently use against ancient serpents, and only if you are lucky or have completely based your build around them. Subtlety is not exactly an ability that you take to deal with a specific threat.

it was just a laundry list of accuracy increasing or otherwise critical hits enabling abilities, not specifically against S. still, delmereth, shortsword of galadriel etc. are perfectly capable endgame weapons imho.

also: sharpness. song of sharpness used to be the pick of choice when keeping a one-handed weapon in the depth. less powerful now, but against ancient serpents? the sharp daggers (or anything else with sharpness) may do wonders as well. (nargil or especially angrist)

[Fendell Orcbane]

it was just a laundry list of accuracy increasing or otherwise critical hits enabling abilities, not specifically against S. still, delmereth, shortsword of galadriel etc. are perfectly capable endgame weapons imho.

also: sharpness. song of sharpness used to be the pick of choice when keeping a one-handed weapon in the depth. less powerful now, but against ancient serpents? the sharp daggers (or anything else with sharpness) may do wonders as well. (nargil or especially angrist)

I am with debo on this. Man I was hitting those S's a bunch of times and sometimes the charge would take them down and other times not. I just think that its crazy that I need a heavy weapon to get anywhere. Hell, I haven never gotten Demerlith without a heavy weapon. Unless I had sharpness.
Really I just wonder what the math is on the heavy weapons. Like what rolls are going on that let the heavy weapons get thru where a lighter more accurate weapon won't.

[bagori nd]

Yeah, I mostly play tough elves who can afford to whiff for a while. (I'm sure it'd be different with humans, etc.)

I usually take Charge too, actually, though I find Charge and Concentration can complement each other more than one might think, since lots of the situations where the former strikes me as least helpful (uniques and other high-HP enemies, drag-out fights with little room to maneuver) are ones where the latter shines.

(otoh, unless I'm using a really heavy weapon, I also tend to take Riposte, which also synergizes well with Dodging/Flanking but which makes Sprinting impracticably expensive.)

[debo]

I am with debo on this. Man I was hitting those S's a bunch of times and sometimes the charge would take them down and other times not. I just think that its crazy that I need a heavy weapon to get anywhere. Hell, I haven never gotten Demerlith without a heavy weapon. Unless I had sharpness.
Really I just wonder what the math is on the heavy weapons. Like what rolls are going on that let the heavy weapons get thru where a lighter more accurate weapon won't.

I think it's totally legit to expect people to carry a big axe or something to deal with S. What frustrates me is that this really doesn't work unless you have something else going for you.

If S were rare enough that it was sort of a 'deal with it and find a way to avoid them' problem, I'd be ok with it. This works OK with other ridiculous monsters like D or unrelenting H, since there's always something you can do to escape. The weak-erratic biff that S get to movement doesn't really prevent them from following you across the entire map, and it's fairly common to encounter 4-5 of them per dungeon level, which just gets unbelievably annoying after you've played the endgame more than... I dunno, once?

Back when song of sharpness was at full-strength and everyone took it, this wasn't as obvious of a problem (although it was kinda boring to do the same thing every time.) Now... not so much. Anyways I whined about this enough already here: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=7109