Question about unlocking chests

[BlueFish]

Let me thank again half and Scatha for this wonderful game that continues to fascinate me. But let me with all humility advance the notion that maybe some of us have more practical experience with playing the game than the designers, and maybe that's an important viewpoint.

It would be a mistake, IMO, to think that the bug has been balanced for intentionally. That would have been up to the community, and this community does not like complaining about difficulty.

[evilmike]

I think the current balance for unlocking chests is good and even though they can be rather difficult, perception is only one way to unlock them. Staff of freedom is a good for stubborn chests.

[debo]

Needing 10+ perception to see traps or secret doors or to open chests has one good repercussion: At this point, you might as well take loremaster!

[locus]

I certainly hope not, but I know that's a possibility.

It's always been my (unstated) opinion that perception actions were way too difficult. I don't play low-grace characters but I do start with 0 perception as surely many builds would. It's just ridiculous trying to unlock doors or find secret doors even at 50'. Soon, without an investment in perception, it becomes impossible.

Personally, my investment in perception caps out at 6, for Bane. It spends a long time at 3, for Keen Senses. At both plateaus, the depth I'm at virtually requires me to have found some perception enhancing items just for a legitimate hope of unlocking chests or finding secret doors. It's not a few times that I've started a level in a square room without exit, knowing it might contain my second forge. Those times can be game breakers. The best hope is that I make enough noise to get an orc to open the secret door from the other side.

My game last night where I found so few healing consumables, I found zero perception enhancing items. With my 6 investment in Perception and 3 grace I had 9 perception. I was leaving chests alone at 700 feet, simply because I had no hope of opening them. I don't think that's the game balance intent for a character with such a not-inconsiderable investment in perception.

Sometimes I find +2 perception rings. Sometimes I find 2. They're good finds and I keep them, just to open chests and find secret doors when I need to. But it's a tedious part of the game I've always disliked, the ring swapping. When you have full inventory, it means the first ring you swap out drops to the floor.

Turns out none of that should be necessary if the code worked as intended.

I think this is just a case of people not wanting to complain about "difficulty", so they don't seem like whiners. Should it really be that difficult to find a secret door at 50' if you haven't invested in Perception yet?

I feel like one of the things that investment in Perception is supposed to get you is the ability to find secret doors, find traps, unlock doors, and unlock chests. I feel like it being more-or-less impossible to do those things without investing in Perception is not necessarily unreasonable, since if you want to do those things, you can invest in Perception. Perception already doesn't do a whole lot, I'd worry that making dungeoneering perception checks easier would tend to make it pointless.

6 points in a skill at 700' is not a huge investment. Would you complain of not being able to hit monsters at 700' when you'd invested 6 whole points in Melee?

[locus]

Let me thank again half and Scatha for this wonderful game that continues to fascinate me. But let me with all humility advance the notion that maybe some of us have more practical experience with playing the game than the designers, and maybe that's an important viewpoint.

It would be a mistake, IMO, to think that the bug has been balanced for intentionally. That would have been up to the community, and this community does not like complaining about difficulty.

I think it's reasonable to take into consideration the viewpoint of the community. The problem is the sleight of hand where you replace "the viewpoint of the community" with "my personal viewpoint" and say "oh well everyone else doesn't count because they don't like complaining about difficulty".

Here's a link to my whining-about-difficulty bona fides: http://angband.oook.cz/forum/showthread.php?t=6684 I hope that's enough that my voice gets to count as an "important viewpoint".

[BlueFish]

Certainly didn't mean to imply that I was the voice of the community. It's long been established that not many agree with me about much.

I think for this, whatever status quo had been initially presented would have been accepted by players without complaint. Between those two equally accepted possibilities, I believe the original intent of the code where perception actions were significantly easier, would be a more fun and less frustrating game. I gave examples above about how certain elements of frustration and tedium would be minimized by fixing this bug.

You can't compare perception investment with melee. There's a reason one tops out at 10 and the other tops out at 20. Perception is meant to be an ancillary utility skill. Not something to base a build on or to invest heavily in, unless one wants to play a novelty build.

[locus]

You can't compare perception investment with melee. There's a reason one tops out at 10 and the other tops out at 20. Perception is meant to be an ancillary utility skill. Not something to base a build on or to invest heavily in, unless one wants to play a novelty build.

??? I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've bought more than 20 points in Melee before, I don't think there's a cap on any of the skills.

Yes, it's a skill that doesn't directly defeat enemies unless you buy Focused Attack or something. It already doesn't get as much investment as the attack skills, usually less than even other "utility skills" like Song and Will. You think it should be made even less important?

[Scatha]

Thanks for finding the bug.

We have, I think, balanced somewhat for the actual behaviour (in the years the game was in beta -- I recall making the numbers a little easier at one point). There is some stickiness to choices, however, so it's quite possible that it's still bit harder than it would have been if we'd started with the other behaviour and balanced to fit that.

[BlueFish]

Thanks for finding the bug.

We have, I think, balanced somewhat for the actual behaviour (in the years the game was in beta -- I recall making the numbers a little easier at one point). There is some stickiness to choices, however, so it's quite possible that it's still bit harder than it would have been if we'd started with the other behaviour and balanced to fit that.

Thanks Scatha. I looked at some numbers today and I changed my mind - I agree with everybody else that adding back some difficulty after the fix would be appropriate.

And my previous anecdote about having 9 perception and ignoring chests was either a mistake on my part (at the time) or me misremembering. 9 perception has a non-zero chance of opening every chest in the game, all the way up to level 24 throne room chests. I might have had 6 perception at the time I was ignoring chests, or maybe I was just being stupid by not trying to open them.

I do continue to find the "start in an exitless room" levels to be frustrating and unfun, especially when it happens in a larger room and while I'm looking for my second forge.

[BlueFish]

??? I'm not sure what you mean by this. I've bought more than 20 points in Melee before, I don't think there's a cap on any of the skills.

I mean, the skill requirement of the last ability in the tree. Perception allows you a grace point at 10 and it makes little sense going beyond that.

Yes, it's a skill that doesn't directly defeat enemies unless you buy Focused Attack or something. It already doesn't get as much investment as the attack skills, usually less than even other "utility skills" like Song and Will. You think it should be made even less important?

Other than the abilities it allows, Perceptions main "use" is to make the game less annoying or frustrating in several ways. In principle I'm not fond of that sort of "use".

[taptap]

I mean, the skill requirement of the last ability in the tree. Perception allows you a grace point at 10 and it makes little sense going beyond that.

Other than the abilities it allows, Perceptions main "use" is to make the game less annoying or frustrating in several ways. In principle I'm not fond of that sort of "use".

We understood you, it is a d10 roll skill, not d20 as the fighting skills. However, you should try seriously high perception (say 30) with listen and the buff abilities once. It is hilarious. You can not only find, but disarm false floors, start hunting rare opponents (green H, red D) to get up the master hunter bonus... and a significant part of your fighting ability depends on your perception skill. You probably can substitute your fighting abilities with perception. I mean it is one skill both for archery and melee

[wobbly]

The part that annoys me is that I never seem to be able to spot the lock/trap on a chest no matter how many times I search for it. It seems that the Staff is the only way to find them. (?)

They can be found. I spotted a trap on a chest today just stepping on it. 14 Perception.

[debo]

Thanks Scatha. I looked at some numbers today and I changed my mind - I agree with everybody else that adding back some difficulty after the fix would be appropriate.

And my previous anecdote about having 9 perception and ignoring chests was either a mistake on my part (at the time) or me misremembering. 9 perception has a non-zero chance of opening every chest in the game, all the way up to level 24 throne room chests. I might have had 6 perception at the time I was ignoring chests, or maybe I was just being stupid by not trying to open them.

I do continue to find the "start in an exitless room" levels to be frustrating and unfun, especially when it happens in a larger room and while I'm looking for my second forge.

The problem of not knowing whether you need to spam 'open' a billion times to open a chest or whether it's just outright impossible still remains, though. The number of times a game I do 'r100o' is... well, probably proportional to the number of chests I find.

I also think it's sort of weird that it's seemingly _much_ easier to bash open doors (even at low strength) than it is to wile them open. I get that from a gameplay perspective, bashing creates noise and wrecks the door and is thus strictly inferior to lockpicking, so making it easier is fair. It just seems odd that doors in angband should be so easily smashable but not so easily trickable. It's the fortress to end all fortresses!

[bron]

I spotted a trap on a chest today just stepping on it. 14 Perception.

OK, good to know. My chars have been stopping at 7 perception (Loremastery); I guess that's just not enough.

[wobbly]

14 total to clarify. I strangely enough only have 4 pts in it. It's a high grace finarfin with a couple of item boosts.

In regards to whether making opening doors easier deflates the value of perception I'd probably be more inclined to invest in perception if unlocking doors was easier. It seems most people only take perception to grab abilities (lore-master or listen) or to stack focus/bane/concentration/hunter bonuses. It's currently a little too expensive to invest just for doors/traps & not particularly reliable an escape when cornered with a locked door or secret passage.

I'm still curious to clarify whether eye for detail works for unlocking doors/disarming traps or just for "spotting" them, as the description reads:

Eye for Detail
• Gives you a bonus of +5 to perception rolls for finding traps and secret doors.

Nothing about opening/disarming there.