Trumpet of Warning id by use?

[wobbly]

I don't often use Thunder or Terror. I guess that Thunder should be pretty useful. Giving something -2 to all skills is actually pretty good (like getting +2 dex and +2 gra during the fight). I think this might be one of those things that people undervalue, but I wouldn't know for sure as I don't keep them... They should be excellent against Cat Warriors and Trolls (low Will), against some uniques etc.

I'm using a trumpet of thunder at the moment & it's great on a character with 7 grace. With most of my points in smithing & not much left for melee it's the difference between being able to reliably melee some enemies.

Edit: Ha ha, just thumped my 1st shadow spider. Debo you should try them stunned, clad in mail & with 4 light radius.

[wobbly]

@wobbly: I still hope to play an intimidation specialist that doesn't kill intelligent creatures but only impresses them. I dubbed this no-stealth pacifist "trickster".

Sounds fun. I've been meaning to play a pacifist for a while but I'm currently too attached to smiths. I think abandoning a forge because my Buddhist smith wont kill a worm would be far too painful.

[taptap]

Re trolls, they can only flee if their overall morale is less than zero *and* they are suffering from a temporary morale modifier.

Ok, this it was. I was trying this with one round of Elbereth and it wore off quickly and they came back from routing despite still having negative confidence (it was with my intimidating archer, I had 7-8 light radius + inner light + majesty pre-throne room) - basically when you see confidence -x you can't really figure out exactly what modified it (you have a different LoS than the creature as well). And of course they come back instantly once they hit positive confidence as well, without building for intimidation you probably don't see trolls with negative confidence without special effects anyway. (Temporary modifiers here includes non-magical ones like cruel blow does it?)

@wobbly: I still hope to play an intimidation specialist that doesn't kill intelligent creatures but only impresses them. I dubbed this no-stealth pacifist "trickster".

[half]

As far as I can tell this is not exactly true, at least not the way I'm reading it. Playing at the moment & I can see it takes a few turns for a troll to stop running after I stop singing Elbereth. They have to get there confidence back above 0 I think if they're already fleeing.

Fighting unique orcs with an Elbereth tank is hilarious. Once 1 of the lesser orcs goes it's a massive chain reaction, till you have orcs scattering everywhere.

Edit: Does fire make snow trolls flee? I just had 1 flee from a hit from a flaming arrow.

Re trolls, they can only flee if their overall morale is less than zero *and* they are suffering from a temporary morale modifier. They are immune to the non-magical temporary morale modifiers, but all of them take a little time to wear off (including Elbereth).

Re orcs, yes this was one of the most exciting aspects of implementing the Sil morale system. Even without using magical fear, you can manipulate this quite successfully. I think it is explained in full detail in the manual. Examples of using this in play include: try to get as many fleeing monsters in LOS of another one as possible to get it to flee, look for monsters near the edge of fleeing and push them over the edge, getting monster's who have escorts to flee is particularly important, visually isolate monsters from their non-fleeing comrades so they don't get morale boosts, use slaying weapons or cruel blow.

Re fire, yes ice and fire monsters are typically vulnerable to their opposing element and this acts like slaying, both with an extra die of damage and causing the temporary morale penalty.

[wobbly]

@debo: Trolls never flee even with already negative confidence unless hit by a magical fear effect. Elbereth (when you have other confidence reducing but not actual fear effects) is very binary against them afair, they flee the moment you turn it on but turn back towards you the moment you stop.

As far as I can tell this is not exactly true, at least not the way I'm reading it. Playing at the moment & I can see it takes a few turns for a troll to stop running after I stop singing Elbereth. They have to get there confidence back above 0 I think if they're already fleeing.

Fighting unique orcs with an Elbereth tank is hilarious. Once 1 of the lesser orcs goes it's a massive chain reaction, till you have orcs scattering everywhere.

Edit: Does fire make snow trolls flee? I just had 1 flee from a hit from a flaming arrow.

[wobbly]

For the new version, trumpets of warning can now be ID'd by use (when they trigger a monster to shout or make a visible monster aggressive).

If there are any other non-ID-by-use items let me know. I want it to be that amulets of adornment are the only ones.

shields of wrath. You can see on the side bar that everything is aggressive. They probably eventually id, just nowhere near as quick as you notice.

[taptap]

Or perhaps a cone, like dragon breath?

Exactly. Exactly. (This message needs at least 10 characters.)

[Scatha]

I quite like the idea of the non-material adjectives if one was going to do this. It would still remain a little odd that all tapered swords were defenders etc, but not as bad as bronze swords, gold swords etc. I also find the NetHack adjectives a bit silly with 'hiking boots' 'jungle boots' 'combat boots' etc. Even something like 'chipped helm' would be a bit silly, in that all helms of brilliance ended up getting chipped etc.

Yes. I actually think it would be better in this case to have adjectives which imply something special and perhaps magical about the object -- this explains how the player knows it's {special}, and also why there's consistency between ones of the same type.

For example:

Otherworldly
Silver-runed
Red-runed
Midnight-tipped
Shimmering
Ornate
Mithril-inlaid
Spotless

Those are from the top of my head, and some of them have issues, but you see the kind of thing I'm aiming at. In any case, this certainly isn't a priority.

[fph]

The problem with a trumpet is that you can't go home and drink mead out of it after the battle is won....

That's what the skulls of your enemies are for.

[half]

This is pretty good. It would be a bigger change, but there's an argument for doing with special item types, too. It's slightly odd that after use identifying a sword of Gondolin, you know straightaway when a second sword does the same thing, but you can't pair them up before identification.

Yes, it is odd, and mainly a vestige of my partial moving of special items to a flavour system (in Angband identifying a defender sword doesn't identify other ones, or at least didn't when Sil forked off). Adding randomised flavour prefixes would complete the move. I quite like the idea of the non-material adjectives if one was going to do this. It would still remain a little odd that all tapered swords were defenders etc, but not as bad as bronze swords, gold swords etc. I also find the NetHack adjectives a bit silly with 'hiking boots' 'jungle boots' 'combat boots' etc. Even something like 'chipped helm' would be a bit silly, in that all helms of brilliance ended up getting chipped etc.

There would remain a question about whether to hide these adjectives after identification. I'd lean towards 'yes' for special items, whereas I decided on 'no' for other flavoured items.

Maybe I'll do this in the future, though there is obviously no rush.

[Scatha]

Materials could be replaced with other adjectives ("An etched horn", "A tapered horn", "A long horn"). You would probably want to use adjectives that don't suck as badly as mine do though

This is pretty good. It would be a bigger change, but there's an argument for doing with special item types, too. It's slightly odd that after use identifying a sword of Gondolin, you know straightaway when a second sword does the same thing, but you can't pair them up before identification.

[Derakon]

Brilliant. For materials, I'd only got as far as "A horn horn". And then stopped.

I thought of that too.

Brass, engraved, maybe ivory?

[half]

Materials could be replaced with other adjectives ("An etched horn", "A tapered horn", "A long horn"). You would probably want to use adjectives that don't suck as badly as mine do though

Brilliant. For materials, I'd only got as far as "A horn horn". And then stopped.

[debo]

Horns and trumpets definitely both appear in Tolkien's works, but overall I think 'horn' would be slightly better because we see individuals carrying and using them, whereas trumpets are more frequently associated with grandeur and situations with many people. It would have the added advantage of not making some people think of (highly incongruous) modern trumpets, but the disadvantage of needing a rethink of the material types.

Materials could be replaced with other adjectives ("An etched horn", "A tapered horn", "A long horn"). You would probably want to use adjectives that don't suck as badly as mine do though

@debo: Trolls never flee even with already negative confidence unless hit by a magical fear effect. Elbereth (when you have other confidence reducing but not actual fear effects) is very binary against them afair, they flee the moment you turn it on but turn back towards you the moment you stop.

Thanks, I wasn't sure about that.

I wonder why the effect of trumpets is linear btw. I used to play the trombone and feel the effect should be more area-affecting (not like the staff but like 90 degrees at once maybe).

Or perhaps a cone, like dragon breath?

[Scatha]

Unwearied then were Durin's folk;
Beneath the mountains music woke:
The harpers harped, the minstrels sang,
And at the gates the trumpets rang.

Horns and trumpets definitely both appear in Tolkien's works, but overall I think 'horn' would be slightly better because we see individuals carrying and using them, whereas trumpets are more frequently associated with grandeur and situations with many people. It would have the added advantage of not making some people think of (highly incongruous) modern trumpets, but the disadvantage of needing a rethink of the material types.