Concentration build

[kryft]

I may still be deluded here, but my rationale was that the heavy armor penalty for evasion doesn't really matter if you're getting enough protection to make up for it (as taptap mentioned earlier, protection and evasion serve the same role in most situations. The melee penalty isn't crippling (mine never exceeded -2), and can be compensated for in many ways. Leaving evasion at something like 10-13 frees up experience for other things (I only raised it from 13 to 18 on the ascent because I had that much left over exp). Also, my first attack (or rather first two attacks with Rapid Attack) against an opponent typically had +7 from Focused Attack, and then the maximum Concentration bonus was +7.

I did end up with quite a few evasion abilities, but I didn't take crowd fighting and sprinting until very late in the game, and flanking was never really necessary (although it's certainly good and fun), so I didn't feel that blocking and heavy armour use were all that expensive.

Yes. I associate heavy armour with shields, but he goes heavy armour and subtlety.

Actually I went heavy armour, subtlety, AND shields! A shield with blocking is very nice against anything that breathes fire or cold (maybe poison too, but I had Este for those anyway), so I always wore the shield while fighting (non-amethyst) serpents or fire drakes because I found that not needing to worry about the breath was better (or at least more comfortable to me) than the extra critical dice from Subtlety. Against most opponents I would of course rather have an empty off-hand and Subtlety, but I didn't feel that Blocking was wasted in any sense.

[debo]

It's definitely unique but not really that crazy when you think about it... many low-evasion heavy armor builds trade-off their shield for 2H weapons in the lategame, and trading it off for a 1h-subtlety has sort of the same effect (less prot, more damage).

The other thing to work around is that heavy armor generally penalizes melee score, which directly impacts your damage for a critting dude. However in this case, he gets +6 just for wielding the dagger (+5 and the elvish blade proficiency), and only -2 from his hauberk. That's sort of like using a vanilla kite shield... the shield he did use didn't have any melee or evasion penalties either.

I personally like to go stealthy as well with stabbers... I know it's not required, but you generally get assassination anyways for cruel blow, so it's hard for me to resist going in that direction. Sneaking is one thing that this build definitely is not going to be doing

Edit: I suspect that I have personally been undervaluing Nargil as a melee weapon... I've never really given it an honest go. Might be too late now, as I hear the rumblings of an incoming nerf

[taptap]

I think the reason we are so surprised by this character is that we expect a light weapons character to have light armour (presumably because Dex increases both Melee and Evasion, and heavy armour decreases both of these).

Yes. I associate heavy armour with shields, but he goes heavy armour and subtlety.

[half]

Impressive. I love that you use Nargil in normal Sil (in mpa-Sil it is an overpowered 0.5 lb +5, 1d7 and still sharp).

I think the reason we are so surprised by this character is that we expect a light weapons character to have light armour (presumably because Dex increases both Melee and Evasion, and heavy armour decreases both of these).

[taptap]

Incidentally I just won for the first time, using a dagger-toting, hauberk-wearing Finarfin.
http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15119

Impressive. I love that you use Nargil in normal Sil (in mpa-Sil it is an overpowered 0.5 lb +5, 1d7 and still sharp).

I have a number of dead concentrated polearm Finarfins. Mainly due to sloppy play and my resistance to some good ability choices. I will go light armour and flanking next time, it will help a lot in crowded situations and open a way to controlled retreat even when it feels like not really combining well with the whole concentration theme. The problem is always flexibility not raw strength. Blocking, heavy armour use and controlled retreat as the other ability tree probably works just as fine (I came very far with this on a Hador, but didn't try with Finarfins). I guess I just feel more comfortable with high evasion.

@Throwing weapons: I never really dabbled with anything else but spears. Maybe my advocacy of bows as a side weapon is due to this.

@Lore-Master: I suffered terribly from lack of resistances in my last games (two ringraukos that even when knocked back leave another ringrauko to attack you and destroy your consumables really brought the message home). I guess a few of those dropped rings could have helped, but without a way to identify them early, I end up dropping them to make space for more obviously useful things.

@Concentration: I played my recent Finarfins with 5 melee, 5 evasion, 5 perception + focus + concentration at start and it really is suitable for many melee builds. At least those I currently consider, that is polearm, fencer, assassin (branching from fencer post subtlety).

[kryft]

Incidentally I just won for the first time, using a dagger-toting, hauberk-wearing Finarfin.

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15119

[kryft]

If you are going high protection, surely Critical Resistance is also mandatory (for cat warriors)? That's one more ability. Maybe Poison Resistance too, I forget.

Not really, unless you have very low evasion (maybe 10 or so?) and have no luck with equipment. I can't state exact conditions for when I think Critical Resistance is worth taking, but I've found that many (maybe even most) of my heavy armor characters didn't end up taking it (because its effect was so small).

I guess the deciding factor in whether I take CR or not is timing: what have I found by the time I run into werewolves or cats? If my evasion is low, CR can be the most cost-effective way to reduce both the mean damage taken and the variance. (If I have exp to spare I sometimes end up taking it anyway later in the game as extra insurance against ridiculously high damage rolls from certain enemies. It's annoying that unless you have really high Con, there are monsters that can one-shot you once every ten thousand attacks even if they deal zero damage 80% of the time.)

[Patashu]

If you are going high protection, surely Critical Resistance is also mandatory (for cat warriors)? That's one more ability. Maybe Poison Resistance too, I forget.

[kryft]

@kryft
Vs. throwing weapons (which means spears to me)

Why spears over throwing axes? I suppose you would get bigger criticals and a bigger strength bonus, but I generally prefer throwing axes for range and weight.

Evasion / protection are interchangeable in principle, but both with subtlety or a heavy polearm you won't be able to use a shield simultaneously, I find it very hard to end with high protection when I can't use shield / blocking. Also, really heavy armour comes with melee penalties as well.

It's true that you probably won't get extremely high protection without a shield, but I have had characters who seemed to have enough, at least if they took a bit more evasion than they would have if they did use a shield. It seems to me that getting high evasion costs more experience than getting high protection, which only requires Heavy Armour Use (and perhaps Hardiness, but most of my characters take that anyway as a prerequisite for Constitution).

I may of course be deluded here. At least I remember elliptic telling me that he doesn't like characters that go for both protection and evasion (instead of only concentrating on one of them), so I may be missing something.

However, often my decisions are in fact role-playing and only effective as a side effect.

Ah, this is something I never do. I may sometimes stubbornly adhere to a certain plan for a character (e.g. "I want subtlety") even though it's suboptimal given the items that I've found, but otherwise I'm all about mechanics and optimization. Even though I enjoy all the Tolkien flavor (and appreciate the way it informs the design of the game mechanics) I play Sil much as I would play go or some other abstract game.

[taptap]

@kryft

With elves I almost always take 3 points in archery and grab precision as first ability for free even when playing a melee specialist. However, I do so with a shortbow as I dread evasion penalties - and I have to force myself to take a side weapon with an evasion penalty. The emphasis was on heavy bows here, which would make it quite an effective weapon in itself even with moderate investment above my standard 3. You don't need criticals that much if you already have 3d10 or 4d8 base damage from bow and poison arrows. Vs. throwing weapons (which means spears to me) the obvious advantage of bows is range (and lower weight) - if you use it to build up concentration against a few scary enemies you better start hitting them from far away.

Evasion / protection are interchangeable in principle, but both with subtlety or a heavy polearm you won't be able to use a shield simultaneously, I find it very hard to end with high protection when I can't use shield / blocking. Also, really heavy armour comes with melee penalties as well.

However, often my decisions are in fact role-playing and only effective as a side effect. If memory serves concentration can be very hard to use in the throne room, you either need intimidation or stealth to do so effectively or you killed everyone else first with rage and song of slaying, while this is fun as well, I would like to do without slaying and slaughter. If you hit Morgoth with 10+ slaying bonus, it probably isn't concentration that gives you the major boost. I would like to go Elbereth (major) + Sharpness, as an additional benefit the throne room isn't completely messed up if you do it that way: http://angband.oook.cz/screen-show.php?id=2380 - intimidation with an archer. The other option is to take wrath (and go for slaying and whirlwind/rage) which works really well with a subtle blade and high skill. Or maybe it isn't completely silly to just grab a Sil in the throne room and duel with Morgoth later in a less crowded circumstances.

I am with you regarding lore-master, I never take it anymore. Especially with high perception builds, you need it less and you couldn't take all the fun abilities. And I like listen (with singers and archers mainly) and cruel blow (with a subtle blade) as well. It is a shame that cruel blow requires assassination (I ended with an accidental assassin once as well).

[kryft]

The idea is to boost melee with high perception and get lots of criticals with subtlety and a shortsword or few but large criticals with a polearm. The only problem I see is that with the shortsword is that focus is almost wasted (no stealth -> no assassination) and I much prefer flanking with subtle shortsword anyway, while with large polearms fights rarely last long enough later in the game to build up a significant concentration bonus, it mainly helps with shooting down fleeing enemies not doing the main damage.

After experimenting with a Finarfin (polearm master) a bit, I believe combining with a heavy bow pays off. To build concentration bonus during the approach, this would especially pay out in crucial fights (Morgoth, late game uniques). To actually do the throne room in style, i.e. a duel with Morgoth without breaking concentration (and not raging and slaying) this would require a substantial amount of song skill with Elbereth (+Majesty, Light, maybe Bane against some nasties) and hopefully not too many unrelenting horrors there.

I've been playing a lot of Finarfin with Concentration, often with Subtlety, and come fairly close to winning. (Very close actually - I'm pretty sure I would have had a good shot at winning the first time I got into the throne room, if a) I hadn't found myself gorged around Morgoth and some nasty uniques and b) I hadn't then pressed 'k' while standing on the crown when I knew very well that I'm using clouded's keys and 'k' will move my character north...) I hadn't thought of using a bow to build concentration bonus, although throwing weapons and focus right before the enemy gets next to me has served me well. Do you feel that bows are better than throwing weapons (for this specific purpose) to the extent that it's worth investing in Archery?

If I'm using light weapons, I obviously tend to go for high melee even with the concentration bonus, but I haven't always gone for high evasion. Many of my Finarfin have actually had Heavy Armour Use with moderate evasion. My rationale is that if I'm relying on getting lots of crit dice without stabbing, it's helpful to be able to stand around taking blows while I wait for a favorable roll; sometimes it happens on the first turn, and Cruel Blow kicks in if I have it, but sometimes it takes a while. Usually I end up having Este too for even more durability.

If I've taken Cruel Blow (and possibly Opportunist or Exchange Places), I sometimes have enough stealth even in heavy armor that I get to assassinate (or avoid) some enemies some of the time, which is a nice bonus. It helps that later on I'm often wearing a nice shadow cloak; I never take Lore Master these days, so I often end up with Listen instead, which makes light radius less important, especially since I usually have Keen Senses and Song of the Trees.

I think this template works fairly well, especially if I'm not hellbent on taking Subtlety regardless of what my character finds. Many of my most successful characters actually used a one-handed weapon and a shield because they happened to find a good shield early. Their damage output wasn't stellar, but on the other hand they would often take zero damage from an Ancient Serpent's breath at point-blank range.

Actually the above-mentioned first character to get to the throne room was using Angrist with Rapid Attack and a shield. As you can see it had also found Saithnar, but as I recall it I concluded (using fsil) that this setup was actually the best against most things that mattered. I did use Angrist with an empty off-hand against some enemies.

  [Sil 1.1.1 Character Dump]

 Name   kryft         Age    4,124       Str   3 =  2  +1
 Sex    Male          Height  6'10       Dex   5 =  4  +1
 Race   Noldor        Weight   168       Con   6 =  4  +1      +1
 House  Finarfin                         Gra   4

 Game Turn   28,795   Melee  (+23,1d6)   Melee       23 = 22  +5  -2  -2
 Exp Pool     4,754          (+23,1d6)   Archery      4 =  0  +5  -2  +1
 Total Exp   84,754   Bows    (+4,1d9)   Evasion     20 = 15  +5
 Burden       135.1   Armor [+20,9-27]   Stealth      4 =  7  +5  -4  -4
 Max Burden   172.8                      Perception  13 =  8  +4      +1
 Depth         1000'  Health     -6:59   Will        16 = 12  +4
 Min Depth     1000'  Voice      46:82   Smithing     4 =  0  +4
 Light Radius     3   Song        Este   Song        16 = 10  +4  +2

 You are one of several children of a warrior from the house of
 Finarfin. You have light grey eyes, straight golden hair, and a fair
 complexion.





  [Last Messages]

> You hit Morgoth, Lord of Darkness!
> The Hithrauko notices you.
> You fall into a pit!
> The Hithrauko engulfs you... <2x>
> There is a pile of rubble in the way! <2x>
> You drop The Dagger of Nargil (+5,1d5) (s).
> You no longer have the Dagger of Nargil (+5,1d5) (s).
> Morgoth, Lord of Darkness hits you.
> Low hitpoint warning!
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> The Hithrauko engulfs you...
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> You begin a song about gentle growth and recovery.
> Morgoth, Lord of Darkness hits you.
> You die.


  [Screenshot]

  .}'}##:
    : H^T
   :###:#
   ##@: #
  ::VR# #
  #.::## 
  SR%    


  [Equipment]

a) The Dagger 'Angrist' (+0,1d5) 0.8 lb
   It cuts very easily through armour.  It can be thrown
   effectively (12 squares).  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  
b) a Shortbow of Radiance (+0,1d7) 1.5 lb
   It fires shining arrows.  It can shoot arrows 13 squares
   (with your current strength).
c) a Pearl Ring of Dexterity <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It sustains your dexterity.
   
d) an Emerald Ring of Damage <+1>
   It improves your damage sides by 1.  
e) The Amulet of Tinfang Gelion <+2>
   It improves your song by 2.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  It grants you the ability: Woven Themes.  
f) a Brass Lantern of Brightness (with 6331 turns of light)
   It burns brightly, increasing your light radius by an
   additional square.  
g) a Mail Corslet of Resilience (-1) [-2,2d5] <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It cannot be harmed by
   the elements.  
h) a Cloak of Protection [+1,1d1]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
i) The Kite Shield of Hador (-1) [+0,1d6]
   It provides resistance to cold and fire.  It cannot be harmed
   by the elements.  
j) a Helm of True Sight [+0,1d2]
   It provides resistance to blindness and hallucination.  It
   grants you the ability to see invisible creatures.  
k) a Set of Gauntlets of Strength [+0,1d2] <+1>
   It increases your strength by 1.  
l) The Pair of Boots of Irime [+1,1d1]
   It sustains your dexterity.  It lights your path behind you.  
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
m) 20 Arrows of Piercing
   They cut easily through armour.  They can be shot 13 squares
   (with your current strength and bow).
n) 26 Arrows (Poisoned)
   They are branded with venom.  They can be shot 13 squares
   (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) 6 Yellow Herbs of Sustenance
b) 4 Flasks of oil
c) 2 Clear Potions of Miruvor
d) 2 Murky Brown Potions of Orcish Liquor
e) 3 Brown Potions of Healing
f) a Dark Blue Potion of Voice
g) 2 Vermilion Potions of Quickness
h) 9 Milky White Potions of Strength
i) 4 Cloudy Potions of Dexterity
j) a Dark Green Potion of Constitution
k) a Bronze Trumpet of Blasting
l) a Runed Staff of Understanding (1 charge)
m) a Beech Staff of Revelations (1 charge)
n) a Rosewood Staff of Treasures (2 charges)
o) a Pearl Ring of Dexterity <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It sustains your dexterity.
   
p) an Amber Amulet of Constitution <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It sustains your 
   constitution.  
q) The Round Shield of Angrod [+0,1d4]
   It provides resistance to fire, confusion, and stunning.  It
   cannot be harmed by the elements.  
r) a Pair of Greaves of Free Action [+0,1d2]
   It grants you freedom of movement.  
s) a Longsword of Hador's House (+1,2d7) [+1] 2.9 lb
   It grants you the ability: Follow-Through.  
t) The Greatsword of Saithnar (+1,3d5) [+1] 7.0 lb
   It slays undead.  It cuts easily through armour.  It grants
   you freedom of movement and the ability to see invisible
   creatures, but it also draws wraiths to your level.  It
   cannot be harmed by the elements.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  
u) 5 Throwing Axes (+0,2d4) {@t0} 7.5 lb
   It can be thrown effectively (9 squares).  
v) a Mattock of Belegost (-5,5d2) <+3> 11.4 lb
   It improves your tunneling by 3.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  


  [Notes]

kryft of the Noldor
Entered Angband on 4 Oct 2013

    Turn     Depth    Note

   1,379    200 ft    Encountered Gorgol, the Butcher
   2,107    200 ft    (Finesse)
   3,699    300 ft    (Focused attack)
   3,699    300 ft    (Concentration)
   4,711    300 ft    Fell through a false floor.
   5,031    350 ft    Encountered Boldog, the Merciless
   5,081    350 ft    Slew Boldog, the Merciless
   5,416    350 ft    Encountered Orcobal, Champion of the Orcs
   5,530    350 ft    Slew Orcobal, Champion of the Orcs
   8,095    400 ft    Encountered Uldor, the Accursed
   8,157    400 ft    Slew Uldor, the Accursed
   8,170    400 ft    Found The Spear of Boldog (from 350 ft)
   8,468    400 ft    (Blocking)
   8,468    400 ft    (Heavy Armour Use)
   9,587    450 ft    (Song of the Trees)
  12,642    500 ft    Encountered Othrod, the Orc Lord
  12,695    500 ft    Slew Othrod, the Orc Lord
  12,698    500 ft    Found The Broken Sword of Amras
  12,700    500 ft    Found The Leather Armour of Caranthir
  13,040    500 ft    Encountered Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
  13,062    500 ft    Slew Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
  13,578    550 ft    (Hardiness)
  13,578    550 ft    (Critical Resistance)
  14,407    550 ft    Found The Robe of Aredhel (from 500 ft)
  15,426    650 ft    Encountered Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
  15,545    650 ft    (Song of Este)
  15,697    650 ft    Destroyed Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
  16,370    650 ft    (Mind Over Body)
  17,212    700 ft    (Song of Slaying)
  17,399    700 ft    (Song of Sharpness)
  17,879    700 ft    Found The Amulet of Tinfang Gelion
  18,388    750 ft    (Keen Senses)
  18,694    750 ft    Fell through a false floor.
  18,774    800 ft    Encountered Belegwath, Balrog of Shadow
  18,786    800 ft    Found The Kite Shield of Hador (from 700 ft)
  18,802    800 ft    (Disguise)
  18,802    800 ft    (Exchange Places)
  19,018    850 ft    Encountered Umuiyan, the Doorkeeper
  19,274    850 ft    Slew Umuiyan, the Doorkeeper
  19,628    850 ft    Found The Battle Axe of Hurin
  19,687    850 ft    Found The Greatsword of Saithnar
  20,221    850 ft    Encountered Turkano, Balrog of the Hosts
  20,544    800 ft    (Controlled Retreat)
  21,508    800 ft    Encountered Scatha the Worm
  21,935    800 ft    Slew Scatha the Worm
  23,428    850 ft    Encountered Tevildo, Prince of Cats
  23,429    850 ft    Encountered Oikeroi, Guard of Tevildo
  23,445    850 ft    Slew Tevildo, Prince of Cats
  23,459    850 ft    Slew Oikeroi, Guard of Tevildo
  23,477    850 ft    Found The Crown of Dark Secrets
  23,664    850 ft    Encountered Dagorhir, the Elfbane
  23,671    850 ft    Slew Dagorhir, the Elfbane
  23,741    850 ft    Found The Pearl 'Nimphelos'
  24,478    850 ft    (Constitution)
  24,633    950 ft    Encountered Draugluin, Sire of Werewolves
  24,796    950 ft    Slew Draugluin, Sire of Werewolves
  24,801    950 ft    Found The Wolf-Hame of Draugluin
  25,186    950 ft    Encountered The Deathblade 'Delmereth'
  25,196    950 ft    Subdued The Deathblade 'Delmereth'
  25,196    950 ft    Found The Deathblade 'Delmereth'
  27,323    900 ft    Encountered Vallach, Balrog of Sudden Flame
  27,330    900 ft    (Listen)
  27,386    900 ft    Destroyed Vallach, Balrog of Sudden Flame
  27,403    900 ft    Found The Dagger 'Angrist'
  27,415    900 ft    (Subtlety)
  27,415    900 ft    (Rapid Attack)
  27,672    900 ft    Entered Cat Fortress
  27,726    900 ft    Encountered Shelob, Spider of Darkness
  27,764    900 ft    Encountered Maeglin, Betrayer of Gondolin
  27,851    900 ft    Slew Maeglin, Betrayer of Gondolin
  27,854    900 ft    Found The Galvorn Armour of Maeglin
  27,963    900 ft    Slew Shelob, Spider of Darkness
  28,155    900 ft    Found The Pair of Boots of Irime
  28,301    900 ft    Found The Round Shield of Angrod
  28,564  1,000 ft    Entered Morgoth's throne room
  28,582  1,000 ft    Encountered Gorthaur, Servant of Morgoth
  28,612  1,000 ft    (Unwavering Voice)
  28,623  1,000 ft    Slew Gorthaur, Servant of Morgoth
  28,713  1,000 ft    Encountered Morgoth, Lord of Darkness
  28,721  1,000 ft    Found The Dagger of Nargil
  28,754  1,000 ft    Encountered Gothmog, High Captain of Balrogs
  28,774  1,000 ft    Found The Massive Iron Crown of Morgoth

  28,795  1,000 ft    Slain by Morgoth, Lord of Darkness.
  28,795  1,000 ft    Died on 05 October 2013.




  ['Score' 020071205]

[taptap]

I haven't been keeping up with Sil lately, but I used to play Evasion/Perception only builds for kicks a while back. It's pretty agonizing, but... interesting, in a way. I got to 550' a few times just using heavy armor mastery, and only focus/attack for repeated rounds to kill things. I repeat, not fun. A quick several points in melee would've made the enemies melt.

I am somewhat heavy on evasion with my attempts as well (and I die a lot, usually when it starts to feel powerful for no particular reason), but no melee?
Sounds definitely unfun.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I haven't been keeping up with Sil lately, but I used to play Evasion/Perception only builds for kicks a while back. It's pretty agonizing, but... interesting, in a way. I got to 550' a few times just using heavy armor mastery, and only focus/attack for repeated rounds to kill things. I repeat, not fun. A quick several points in melee would've made the enemies melt.

[taptap]

Ok, not to hijack the other thread, maybe this is worth a thread of its own.

Selfquotation:

There is nothing wrong with early (at start) focus / concentration, many people don't try because they always take lore-master later, so can't afford many perception abilities - concentration alone easily equals on average 2-4 more points in 1-to-1 melee anyway.

With focus and concentration, I would go either polearm (polearm mastery + power + knockback) or shortsword (finesse + subtlety + parry/riposte - only switch to shortsword when you have subtlety).

Here is an attempt with shortsword (and ridiculous stat distribution http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=14631), there an attempt with polearms: http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=15086)

The idea is to boost melee with high perception and get lots of criticals with subtlety and a shortsword or few but large criticals with a polearm. The only problem I see is that with the shortsword is that focus is almost wasted (no stealth -> no assassination) and I much prefer flanking with subtle shortsword anyway, while with large polearms fights rarely last long enough later in the game to build up a significant concentration bonus, it mainly helps with shooting down fleeing enemies not doing the main damage.

After experimenting with a Finarfin (polearm master) a bit, I believe combining with a heavy bow pays off. To build concentration bonus during the approach, this would especially pay out in crucial fights (Morgoth, late game uniques). To actually do the throne room in style, i.e. a duel with Morgoth without breaking concentration (and not raging and slaying) this would require a substantial amount of song skill with Elbereth (+Majesty, Light, maybe Bane against some nasties) and hopefully not too many unrelenting horrors there.