Sil: Overpowered / underpowered

[HugoVirtuoso]

On a related note, and I know there may be balance issues with this, but dwarves and smithing and axes go so well together, it would be cool to be able to create mithril great axes.

Good point!

If there are Mithril Longswords and even Mithril Greatswords that are so well handled by the Noldor. Then, why not have Mithril Battle Axes and Mithril Great Axes for the Dwarves of Sil?

[half]

Thanks for the comments on mithril items, BlueFish. I'll think further on that (or have Scatha think further on it and then just accept his advice...).

One thing I wanted to note regarding both Shadow Cloaks and Mithril items is that they are trying to do a similar thing (as are Dragon-horn Longbows, Galvorn Armour and Dwarf Masks). In all these cases, they are base items that are quite powerful and a bit interesting. They mostly don't dominate all the other base items in their categories, but are notably good. They are also rare. I think this balances them pretty well.

The idea is that you are about as likely to find a fine *or* special item of the regular base type as a normal item of the powerful base type and these will be about as powerful. Similarly you are about as likely to find a fine *and* special item of a regular base type as a fine *or* special item of the powerful base type and these are about equally powerful.

The complaint about shadow cloaks referenced finding one that was both fine and special (and had rolled optimally within its special type). This will create something that is at about artefact level of power, but I don't have a big problem with that as it will also be at or above artefact rarity, and I like to have artefacts continuous with non-artefacts.

Some of this carries over into forging artefacts (for those powerful base types you can forge). As BlueFish pointed out, they are a bit overcosted when unimproved, but they become very competitive when more improvements are made. I'm not sure, but I think part of his concern about mithril items was that at that point of the game he rates the bonuses to evasion, melee and protection sides as less important than other abilities. This would indeed make mithril items lacklustre since you are forced to get these aspects, even if they are at a good price.

[taptap]

Good point!

If there are Mithril Longswords and even Mithril Greatswords that are so well handled by the Noldor. Then, why not have Mithril Battle Axes and Mithril Great Axes for the Dwarves of Sil?

Meh, this smells of Adamantium battle axes (dwarf fortress). If there were no momentum in game, you wouldn't even want Mithril axes - I mean what to do with a 1.5 lb battle axe with 4 strength + charge? Mithril shortswords, however! (Is an ultra-light-weight axe head even physically sound? I am aware fantasy trope axe heads are way oversized by mistaking large woodcutting axes - or padded roleplaying weapons ? - as model for battle axes, but Mithril ...)

Galvorn armour and dwarf masks work. Galvorn armour often tends to be my preferred armour for the types I play, but often I only find one in the throne room. Especially improved Galvorn armours are supercool (they are in the same enchantment class as leather armour, so you can get a galvorn armour of stealth).

I have, however, not seen any player using dragon-horn longbows. I lugged out a good one with my last archer for role playing reasons, but I didn't shoot it once. Archery abilities work with criticals - precision & crippling shot and given how rare dragon-horn longbows are and that you can't make them yourself it really isn't an option to consciously try a heavy bow - less precision archery build, only other way to really use high strength as archer is using rapid fire more regularly.

Shadow cloak of stealth: Yes, I know it is rare, but it just has such a large impact if you find it and have the light to support it. A good way to compare is smithing difficulty, even a plain shadow cloak is quite hard to make, a shadow cloak like that is insanely difficult, while many, even great artefacts are well in range to reproduce or improve for an experienced smith.

[BlueFish]

Some of this carries over into forging artefacts (for those powerful base types you can forge). As BlueFish pointed out, they are a bit overcosted when unimproved, but they become very competitive when more improvements are made.

This effect exists but its meaningfulness is easy to overstate, I think. Pieces of smithable mithril armor have one statistical advantage in their native form, be it evasion or protection or melee. (Exception: mithril corslet has 2.) Of everything you can put on a piece of eq, only by improving that specific advantage does this idea of "easier to improve" ever come into play. And then, unless you really stack it, the advantage is minor (one point of smithing for the first increment, then 2 for the next, as far as I know).

The other advantage is that the limit to that statistic is greater by one, but again this is not so meaningful except for very specific and I suspect rare smithing goals.

I'm not sure, but I think part of his concern about mithril items was that at that point of the game he rates the bonuses to evasion, melee and protection sides as less important than other abilities. This would indeed make mithril items lacklustre since you are forced to get these aspects, even if they are at a good price.

Yes, that is my concern in practice - I don't want the baked in statistics of mithril at the baked in price. And, it's important to keep in mind that it's not a good price except for Shields and Corslets, unless one plans on stacking that advantage heavily, rather than spending the smithing points on any of the other 10s of things one can put on artifacts. (Mithril as it stands would certainly be better for Artistry smiths rather than Artifice smiths.)

[half]

Thanks for those additional comments BlueFish. They are good points. I think we've got to the heart of this now.

[taptap]

Underpowered: Dagorhir.

I died to almost everything in the game (brown molds and bats incl.) but I can't remember a single time Dagorhir presented a problem. It is the only troll unique and unlike his icon he is quite pallid. (He could benefit nicely from one of the planned special effects - via song or staff use.)

[debo]

When he shows up with cave trolls, he is cake. Sometimes he shows up with an entire escort of troll guards, though, and that's much worse...

[BlueFish]

Lost a really good game to him once, but I think that's the only time he killed me. In retrospect, I should have used pots of quickness.

[half]

He is updated in the dev version. Should be a lot more noticeable.

[BlueFish]

False floors are clearly the most dangerous trap, and yet one of the few that doesn't allow a saving throw. Might that make them "overpowered"? I find them to be so, as a smith. I think they're too common. Falling through one after you found a forge and are just clearing a level is an all too common bit of un-fun annoyance, for instance.

I think it would be appropriate to allow false floors the same saving throw as collapsing ceiling traps. I think it would also be good to make them less common, relative to other traps.

[taptap]

False floors are clearly the most dangerous trap, and yet one of the few that doesn't allow a saving throw. Might that make them "overpowered"? I find them to be so, as a smith. I think they're too common. Falling through one after you found a forge and are just clearing a level is an all too common bit of un-fun annoyance, for instance.

I think it would be appropriate to allow false floors the same saving throw as collapsing ceiling traps. I think it would also be good to make them less common, relative to other traps.

I know the feeling. I guess the reasoning behind it is, that there are currently no "collapsed floor tiles" in Sil and no connection between floors but stairs. (Deathfall traps have evasion as saving throw afaik and you end on the adjacent tile, but pits and webs don't have a saving throw the moment you stumble into them as well.)

When I play with high perception being able to detect and disarm false floors is one of the things that I enjoy about it, but only because of the experience of falling through a false floor when walking up to Belthronding or similar situations.

[locus]

I think it's legitimate for there to exist bad things that can happen to characters with low Will and Perception scores, in order to incentivize improving your Will and Perception scores. If anything, I feel like there's not enough pushing me to increase it above the 7 necessary for Loremaster, given that I'll almost always have a True Sight swap and if not I can get True Sight potions.

[Scatha]

I agree that it's nice to have some rewards for high Perception. Eye for Detail and Song of Freedom can also help.

The main idea of the traps, however, is to put you in an unknown level and isolated from the stairs. This gives some exciting stories, and is definitely worth keeping and not making too rare or too easy to avoid.

The other aspect, of cutting you off from the current level, has positive and negative features. It can be good to have some tension between using forges as you find them and trying to squeeze more experience out of the level, for example. But there's a feel bad effect which is what you seem to be pushing against here. This may present a weak argument in favour of smaller levels, so there's typically less to lose when this occurs.

[wobbly]

I had a false floor trap spawn on the square next to an enchanted forge the other day, which I consider, just cruel.

[taptap]

Next to all the shiny dragonhorn superbows the shortbow of Celegorm looks a bit sad.