Sil: Overpowered / underpowered

[taptap]

Overpowered: Shadow cloaks. Especially the [+4]<+5> variety. For comparison: Song artefacts give you a +2 bonus and people are happy to find them, other song items top out at +3.

[half]

Overpowered: Shadow cloaks. Especially the [+4]<+5> variety. For comparison: Song artefacts give you a +2 bonus and people are happy to find them, other song items top out at +3.

Best to ignore the {special} types as regular cloaks get those bonuses too, and it is harder to find a shadow cloak with the type you like, since they are much more rare. If the above item had been a regular cloak, it would have been [+2] <+3> without darkness, which is also great. Compared to a regular cloak, a shadow cloak has [+2] <+2 stealth> and darkness. For what proportion of characters is that a good deal?

My guess is that it is a good deal a bit more than half the time, and at least an interesting deal, but a fair proportion of characters would be better off with a regular cloak. I like that shadow cloaks are typically a bit better than regular cloaks. If they were made less good (presumably [+2] <+2> or [+3] <+1>) then they would be more a niche thing. Perhaps that would be good. (Note that they are often niche anyway as the choice is often between the best regular cloak for your character and the only two shadow cloaks you have found.)

[taptap]

For what proportion of characters is that a good deal?

I often leave shadow cloaks on the ground because I don't have enough light. I guess there are many characters who don't use shadow cloaks, either because you have important resistances on the cloak or don't have the light. But for those who do, the difference between finding a good one or not finding one at all is huge. For me it is often the question whether I found a good light source before and when I already have 4 light I can trade a single light for 2 evasion and 4-5 stealth. It is often a good trade only for the evasion, if you care about the stealth at all then it is invaluable.

[debo]

The only things I can think of that are truly overpowered are some of the artefacts, which I feel is fair. Saithnar in particular feels like a complete game-changer whenever I find it. The wraith thing is sort of dangerous, but since your weapon (a) gives free action (b) see invis and (c) slay undead and (d) sharpness, they are basically free XP at that point.

Of course, this does require that you haven't irrevocably steered your build away from 2-handed weapons, but even in those cases I imagine it would be quite good.

[HugoVirtuoso]

One way to balance Saitnar is to have BOTH Danger + Increased Wraith spawning to offset its overpowered feeling.

[taptap]

Of course, this does require that you haven't irrevocably steered your build away from 2-handed weapons, but even in those cases I imagine it would be quite good.

Yes, yes. My reaction to Saithnar (with a light weapon char): Oh Saithnar. Good swap weapon. But dangerous effects on a swap weapon? Hmm.

I feel a strong urge, however, to build a light weapon user with a selfmade sharp shortsword one day. A sharp 1d8 2lb shortsword is 33, a sharp 1d8 1lb shortsword is 35 difficulty. 5 more with additional evasion, 5 less with danger. My current smith had 31 peak smithing so this looks achievable.

[debo]

One way to balance Saitnar is to have BOTH Danger + Increased Wraith spawning to offset its overpowered feeling.

I dunno, danger is already borderline overused as a balancing effect IMO. I think that would be heavy-handed. Just removing one or two of the anti-undead effects would be interesting enough, I think.

[debo]

Yes, yes. My reaction to Saithnar (with a light weapon char): Oh Saithnar. Good swap weapon. But dangerous effects on a swap weapon? Hmm.

I feel a strong urge, however, to build a light weapon user with a selfmade sharp shortsword one day. A sharp 1d8 2lb shortsword is 33, a sharp 1d8 1lb shortsword is 35 difficulty. 5 more with additional evasion, 5 less with danger. My current smith had 31 peak smithing so this looks achievable.

This is super fun the first time you pull it off.

Edit: I wouldn't worry too much about bumping the damage sides. Sharpness + !!!!!!!!!!! is going to overkill most things in the game on an assassination hit.

[half]

I feel a strong urge, however, to build a light weapon user with a selfmade sharp shortsword one day. A sharp 1d8 2lb shortsword is 33, a sharp 1d8 1lb shortsword is 35 difficulty. 5 more with additional evasion, 5 less with danger. My current smith had 31 peak smithing so this looks achievable.

Just hope for Angrist?

[BlueFish]

Underpowered: Mithril in smithing. I'm not sure if this is working as intended. Mithril Greaves for instance have base stats of [+0, 1d2], which differs from the stats of normal boots by only 1 protection side. That protection side can be added to boots in the Numbers menu and the smithing cost of those boots is still less than the smithing cost of the base mithril greaves.

Boots [+0, 1d2]: smithing cost 4
Mithril greaves [+0, 1d2]: smithing cost 7

You do get acid immunity for that 3 extra smithing cost of the mithril greaves, but artifact boots get that for free, too.

Was mithril intended to have the "easily enchantable" flag? It doesn't, currently, but that would make much more sense for both flavor and gameplay reasons, IMO. Despite how difficult Mithril is to find and lug around, it is virtually useless in-game for anything but Feanorian Lamps. Or am I missing something?

Edit: here are the other mithril items compared to the smithing cost of non-mithril statistically equivalent items:

Mithril Helm [-1, 1d3]: smithing cost 5
Helm [-1, 1d3]: smithing cost 5

Mithril Shield (-1) [+0, 1d6]: smithing cost 7
Kite Shield (-1)[+0, 1d6]: smithing cost 8

Mithril Gauntlets [+0, 1d2]: smithing cost 7
Gauntlets: [+0, 1d2]: smithing cost 7

Mithril Corslet [-2,2d4]: smithing cost 7
Corslet [-2, 2d4]: smithing cost 12

Mithril greaves [+0, 1d2]: smithing cost 7
Boots [+0, 1d2]: smithing cost 4


15 pounds of mithril for the corslet is more than most games ever provide, but it's nice that at least one mithril item has a meaningful advantage in smithing. It would be nice if all the mithril items had a similar advantage. (I think the "enchantable" flag is a better advantage though, since making a mithril masterpiece makes perfect sense, and it would be a larger advantage than a small flat bonus in that case.)

[wobbly]

Though both the shield & the corslet are a fair bit lighter in mithril & you couldn't make [+0, 1d3] boots, at least not with just artistry.

[BlueFish]

Yes, there are some rare cases where even though the statistics are identical, mithril is preferable. Where the "native" advantage of mithril items exist, you can stack that advantage more cheaply. But personally when I'm crafting stuff in the late-game (when you'll have mithril), I'm uninterested in stacking protection or evasion, compared to adding abilities and resistances. Unfortunately, for a mithril item with baked-in protection or evasion, which come at a baked-in smithing cost, it is generally the sub-optimal choice for such artifacts. That doesn't feel right to me. This can be a big disappointment to players, considering how opaque smithing is, and how difficult it is to acquire and lug around mithril. I was expecting a fun, if rare, reward.

[Scatha]

Underpowered: Mithril in smithing.

Thanks for making a clear case. I agree that it looks underpowered.

While the enchantable flag could be used, we'd have to think carefully about the effects of this, as it would provide a noticeable power boost to expert smiths while leaving dabblers still relatively uninterested in mithril.

I think the most natural solution would be to lower the difficulty of the mithril items to the same as, or preferably just above, their regular counterparts. Difficulty is generally based on the minimum depth in the item file, but they could always get a second appearance at a shallow depth with very high rarity.

This would have the effect that mithril would be desired by smiths. It would be particularly desired by those making items they expect never to replace, but not by a ridiculous margin.

[taptap]

I would like a small bonus to artifice/enchantment with Mithril as well, but I already use it regularly for lamps, shields and rarely helms and corslets (you can change the weight, 12 lb isn't impossible if you clear a greater vault and have some Mithril saved already). I found repeatedly that if you find an improved Mithril corslet in the dungeon that it is way better than most artefact armours or anything I could make. I dropped the Corslet of Fingon for a -1, 2d5 Mithril corslet of resilience once.

[BlueFish]

Thanks for making a clear case.

You're welcome, Scatha. I really enjoy advanced Smithing from the standpoint of all the abilities and resistances you can mix and match depending on what drops you've gotten in the dungeon. Mithril is a potentially very cool addition to that, given how rare and deep mithril items are, and how neat it is to be able to melt them down and make new stuff out of them. I think it's got a lot of cool potential.

I agree that it looks underpowered.

While the enchantable flag could be used, we'd have to think carefully about the effects of this, as it would provide a noticeable power boost to expert smiths while leaving dabblers still relatively uninterested in mithril.

Yep, I sort of like that from a flavor perspective. Maybe a basic mithril item would be more difficult to make (maybe even compared to an identically enchanted "normal" item, c.f. how Mithril Greaves work now) but the mithril could more easily hold "great enchantments". that seems both very thematic and very fun. If balance was a problem, you wouldn't have to use the Enchantable flag. Mithril could carry some intrinsic enchanting bonus that wouldn't necessarily be as powerful as the "enchantable" flag's 20%.

I think the most natural solution would be to lower the difficulty of the mithril items to the same as, or preferably just above, their regular counterparts. Difficulty is generally based on the minimum depth in the item file, but they could always get a second appearance at a shallow depth with very high rarity.

This would have the effect that mithril would be desired by smiths. It would be particularly desired by those making items they expect never to replace, but not by a ridiculous margin.

Yep, that would work too.

On a related note, and I know there may be balance issues with this, but dwarves and smithing and axes go so well together, it would be cool to be able to create mithril great axes.