Sil: what are the mechanics of life drain?

[BlueFish]

How does life drain work, in the code? I have no idea how powerful it is.

[half]

How does life drain work, in the code? I have no idea how powerful it is.

You gain 7 health for each kill of a living enemy.

It is pretty good, but the hunger effect that is typically found with it might be too much of a counterbalance: I don't see many people wielding vampiric weapons. Then again, we tend to try to balance the non-Tolkenian themed mechanics to make them not too popular.

As with Song of Slaying, there is a potential to use this in interesting ways, such as keeping a stock of worm masses or other weaker creatures near you when duelling a unique, and using rage or whirlwind attack to heal as you fight. I don't know if anyone has tried this.

[debo]

I've used it a couple of times to good effect. (I made some fake Stormbringer artefact in the edit files once and used it on an Edain, and it was very helpful there.)

I've been hesitant to use it in the past, though, because I was unsure of the exact mechanic and never got around to sourcediving for it. Perhaps making that number explicit somewhere (manual or gametext) would encourage more people to use it?

Knowing this now, I might try to brand vampirism onto a weapon to avoid the hunger effect (unless they're somehow bound together in smithing as well, but I don't think they are.)

[taptap]

I've used it a couple of times to good effect. (I made some fake Stormbringer artefact in the edit files once and used it on an Edain, and it was very helpful there.)

I've been hesitant to use it in the past, though, because I was unsure of the exact mechanic and never got around to sourcediving for it. Perhaps making that number explicit somewhere (manual or gametext) would encourage more people to use it?

Knowing this now, I might try to brand vampirism onto a weapon to avoid the hunger effect (unless they're somehow bound together in smithing as well, but I don't think they are.)

The only vampiric weapon I used so far is Delmereth. If you actually do switch out of combat one hunger item isn't too bad. And you save a lot on potions (just take out a couple of trolls instead). But there are several armours in game that have hunger too. With smithing it should, however, be relatively easy to put mind over body on one of your artifacts for only 500xp.

[half]

The only vampiric weapon I used so far is Delmereth. If you actually do switch out of combat one hunger item isn't too bad. And you save a lot on potions (just take out a couple of trolls instead). But there are several armours in game that have hunger too. With smithing it should, however, be relatively easy to put mind over body on one of your artifacts for only 500xp.

Or just take the ability, or add slow digestion to an artefact, or wear an item with it. There are a lot of ways to deal with hunger in Sil. In general, it is used to create a kind of strategic budget you can spend in several ways:

- being able to use a hunger causing item
- getting extra inventory slots by not carrying so many food types
- not having to panic so much about Oathwraiths
- not having to wear a slow digestion item
- not having to take mind over body

[HallucinationMushroom]

When I first started playing, I thought vampiric weapons were gonna rock... but the life gain on monster death made it much less attractive. I'm used to vampiric weapons draining life on hit, but that would be too good I guess. My thought process goes... I don't need hitpoints after the creature is dead. But, I can see how it would be awesome for the throne room, or other gigantic fights.

[half]

When I first started playing, I thought vampiric weapons were gonna rock... but the life gain on monster death made it much less attractive. I'm used to vampiric weapons draining life on hit, but that would be too good I guess. My thought process goes... I don't need hitpoints after the creature is dead. But, I can see how it would be awesome for the throne room, or other gigantic fights.

Yeah, that was the idea. I know that in most games it is a case of getting back x% of the health you remove, but I thought I'd try something different. It seems a bit more evil and vampiric to me that you get a fixed benefit when the creature dies. More like the blade is drinking their soul in the style of Stormbringer. It is possible that it should be a % of your max health though, like all (?) the other health gain in Sil.

The idea is that you are often fighting more than one enemy (or at least you are when you actually need some help) and that this would let you do interesting tactical things, such as keeping the weaker one alive for a little while if you are already at full health, then killing them when you need to heal. Even just avoiding the need to rest is relevant to the game.

I like it being linked to a serious downside, and that being hunger, so if the upside is not big enough, then I'm open to making it larger. e.g. heal 25% on a kill. That is larger if you have Con > 2.

[T-Mick]

What if they restored some nutrition as well?

[debo]

I personally like the fixed health recovery because it makes vampiric weapons a decent option for low-Con characters (e.g. Edain). Healing potions don't work so well for a 0 or 1 Con fighter, and this gives an alternative option at the expense of increased hunger, and I don't even have to use consumables to do it.

How did you arrive at 7 for the number? This is probably ignorant, but maybe even a simple bump up to 10 or 7+1d4 or something would help make it a bit more noticeable.

The only other ability I can think to peripherally compare it to is Este, since right now I believe it recovers a fixed amount of HP (based on Song) per turn. To me, Este 'feels' far more useful.

The only other annoyance I have about vampirism is that optimal play means constantly switching away from my vampiric weapon when I'm exploring. I don't know if we'd ever want to go as far as having hunger items affect you when they're in your pack (like danger), but at least it would remove this tendency

[wobbly]

The only other annoyance I have about vampirism is that optimal play means constantly switching away from my vampiric weapon when I'm exploring. I don't know if we'd ever want to go as far as having hunger items affect you when they're in your pack (like danger), but at least it would remove this tendency

They start cursed don't they? What if it was a kind of permanent curse. You could uncurse it to remove it but re-wielding it restores the cursed flag? I find this swapping in & out more annoying with amulets of haunted dreams. It feels to me like you can get the benefits without the penalties.

[debo]

They start cursed don't they? What if it was a kind of permanent curse. You could uncurse it to remove it but re-wielding it restores the cursed flag? I find this swapping in & out more annoying with amulets of haunted dreams. It feels to me like you can get the benefits without the penalties.

Crawl does a sort of similar thing -- in order to wield vampiric weapons, you have to be full, and it will automatically consume a bunch of food when you wield it (or something like this, I'm still a scrub).

Both of these dodges seem a bit kludgy for Sil, though, unless all cursed weapons were to work the way described above (which would be sort of annoying.)

[evilmike]

Crawl does a sort of similar thing -- in order to wield vampiric weapons, you have to be full, and it will automatically consume a bunch of food when you wield it (or something like this, I'm still a scrub).

That's correct, when you wield a vampiric weapon in Crawl you lose a bunch of nutrition. There's no passive hunger effect. Many versions ago there used to be, but it was replaced with the one time cost to avoid encouraging constant weapon swapping. I don't know if this would be appropriate for sil, since nothing else works like this.