Sil: Smithing starts?

**Patashu** · July 11, 2013, 06:08

Originally posted by BlueFish

I've been experimenting with different Dwarf Master Smith starts. My stat allocation is 2/3/5/2.

I've tried the "artistry" start with armorsmith+artistry, which is good for getting good evasion quickly, but acid tends to eat away at the items so it gets frustrating.

What acid attacks in the game are impossible to avoid?

Green worm masses, you can strip naked and fight them off, or just go somewhere else.

There are more acid monsters but they don't seem to appear for a long time, by which point you'll be far more prepared.

Pretty much the only thing left is (pretty infrequent) traps (and if they're really a problem, pumping perception or Eye for Detail is the way to go)

**BlueFish** · July 11, 2013, 06:24

Originally posted by Patashu

What acid attacks in the game are impossible to avoid?

Green worm masses, you can strip naked and fight them off, or just go somewhere else.

There are more acid monsters but they don't seem to appear for a long time, by which point you'll be far more prepared.

Pretty much the only thing left is (pretty infrequent) traps (and if they're really a problem, pumping perception or Eye for Detail is the way to go)

Yes, traps. It's not an option to just "pump perception". That doesn't always work and you don't always have the exp. And stripping naked to fight acid monsters doesn't work; you have to drop all the stuff first, or risk it getting destroyed (not merely damaged) in your inventory. And dropping stuff has a whole new set of risks of its own.

**Scatha** · July 11, 2013, 13:52

I normally have higher Grace with my smiths, but I enjoy trying to push up my power level through the dungeon. High Grace helps synergise with Song of Aule, and other useful songs.

**debo** · July 11, 2013, 14:43

Acid with artistry start isn't that big a deal. You usually find at least a couple of 2-use forges that are useless for artifice, which you can use to rebuild your stuff. And if you don't have artifice, you will probably run out of handy things to make anyways.

That said, I usually don't take artistry if I'm planning on taking artifice: I go the enchantment route instead. Usually helm of brillance + boots of speed + shield of deflection at my first forge, and then gloves of forging + other stuff at second forge.

It's not as overtly powerful as the artistry start, but it does help survivability in its own way.

After the second forge, I rush to artifice and make the loremaster helm. Then I build basic skills for awhile, before buffing smithing again somewhere around 600' or 700'. This can be a very stressful time

I don't go apeshit with the smithing equipment as much in 1.1.1. I just hope to make a few decent artefacts and then one masterpiece one, plus some good rings, amulets etc. with jeweller. Even that can be a stretch.

if you really want to see a strong smithing progression, I'd check out some of Psi's ladder dumps from 1.1.0 and 1.1.1.

**debo** · July 11, 2013, 14:44

The other way to go, obviously, is to go artistry + armoursmith + jeweler and use that to unlock artifice. With a master smith dwarf, this isn't too expensive, so it's probably a better route given their low dex. The only smiths I played recently were Feanor.

**taptap** · July 12, 2013, 14:50

I had two dwarves recently (each house once), went 3 2 5 2 with armoursmith and artistry (and charge) - and later added jeweler mainly for feanorian lamps (once made 3). I completely gave up on "real (artificing) smiths" - though I might be tempted when I find Gloves of Celebrimbor or the Crown of Feanor. I often take weaponsmith with other builds (archers, "fencers") and they tend to end up with jeweler as well as soon as I find mithril.

I like the nightlight (it is what the lesser jewel of Finwe should be).

For me high-end smithing goes best with archery or high evasion - not exactly for the evasion bonus but because you don't need armour that urgently instead of beautiful artifact robes and crowns. For many slots I could never make something equal or even better than what you usually find (swords, shields, bows, often standard stat-rings), but w/ amulets or robe or crown or gloves I can (because the artifacts are either rare or often quite specialized in a different way). E.g. gloves of nimble fingers +3 archery + rapid fire or an amulet that gives you +2 to two skills + an ability (compare that to Tinfang Gelion) are perfectly possible.

**BlueFish** · August 5, 2013, 20:45

Finally won with a Master Smith start, taking 3/4 melee/evasion and 7 smithing at the start, then creating gloves of forge+2 and 2 +2 rings of accuracy at the first forge.

This guy slew Morgoth very easily. He had 39 evasion, when fully equipped with the shortsword of galadriel and an off-hand defender. Between that and Riposte, along with Song of Sharpness interwoven with Song of Slaying, the throne room presented no challenge at all.

Never found a single enchanted forge, but did find plenty of normal forges.

Code:

  [Sil 1.1.1 Character Dump]

 Name   Noogie        Age       43       Str   4 =  2  +2
 Sex    Male          Height   4'1       Dex   5 =  3  +1      +1
 Race   Naugrim       Weight   169       Con   6 =  5          +1
 House  Nogrod                           Gra   3 =  2  +1

 Game Turn   35,866   Melee  (+27,5d7)   Melee       27 = 21  +5  +1
 Exp Pool     1,129   Bows   (+11,1d8)   Archery     11 =  1  +5  +6  -1
 Total Exp  109,329   Armor [+31,5-14]   Evasion     31 = 25  +5  +1
 Burden       117.5                      Stealth      3 =  2  +5  -4
 Max Burden   207.3   Health     59:59   Perception  11 =  8  +3
 Depth           0'   Voice      69:69   Will        15 = 12  +3
 Min Depth       0'                      Smithing     8 =  3  +3      +2
 Light Radius     4                      Song        13 = 10  +3

 You are the only child of a Dwarven Outcast. You are a credit to the
 family. You have dark brown eyes, straight black hair, a two foot
 beard, and a dark complexion.





  [Last Messages]

> You hit the Vampire lord.
> The Vampire lord misses you.
> You hit the Vampire lord.
> You have slain the Vampire lord.
> The Vampire lord claws you...
> You hit the Vampire lord.
> You have slain the Vampire lord.
> You miss the Vampire lord.
> The Vampire lord misses you. <2x>
> You hit the Vampire lord.
> The Vampire lord flees in terror!
> You see a Set of Gauntlets of Strength (-1) [+0,1d1] <+1>.
> You see a Pair of Greaves [+0,1d2].
> There is a pile of rubble in the way!
> You have found a trap.


  [Screenshot]

  .......
  ~...#..
  ~~.....
  .~.@...
  .~~...#
  ..~~...
  ...~...


  [Equipment]

a) a Mattock of Belegost (-5,5d2) <+3> 13.5 lb
   It improves your tunneling by 3.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.  
b) a Shortbow of Radiance (+0,1d7) 1.5 lb
   It fires shining arrows.  It can shoot arrows 12 squares
   (with your current strength).
c) a Chalcedony Ring of Accuracy (+3)
d) a Chalcedony Ring of Accuracy (+3)
e) a Driftwood Amulet of the Blessed Realm <+1>
   It increases your grace by 1.  It sustains your grace.  It 
   lights the dungeon around you.  
f) a Feanorian Lamp of True Sight
   It provides resistance to blindness and hallucination.  It
   grants you the ability to see invisible creatures.  
g) The Mail Corslet of Gundor (-1) [-1,2d4] <+1>
   It increases your strength by 1.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  It grants you the ability: Crowd Fighting.  
h) The Cloak of Noogie [+1]
   It provides resistance to fire.  It grants you freedom of
   movement.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
i) (nothing)
j) The Mithril Helm of Clear Cutting (+1) [+0,1d3]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It grants you the
   abilities: Concentration and Clarity.  
k) The Set of Gloves of Strength <+1>
   It increases your strength by 1.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  
l) The Pair of Boots of Noogie [+1,1d1] <+1>
   It increases your dexterity by 1.  It cannot be harmed by the
   elements.  
m) 90 Arrows
   They can be shot 12 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 85 Arrows (+3)
   They can be shot 12 squares (with your current strength and bow).


  [Inventory]

a) 8 Russet Herbs of Rage
b) 9 Wrinkled Herbs of Healing
c) 2 Dark Green Herbs of Restoration
d) 7 Clear Potions of Miruvor
e) 2 Murky Brown Potions of Orcish Liquor
f) 6 Brown Potions of Healing
g) 7 Grey Potions of Voice
h) 19 Cloudy Potions of Quickness
i) 4 Vermilion Potions of Elemental Resistance
j) 8 Smoky Potions of Strength
k) 5 Brilliant Blue Potions of Dexterity
l) a Dark Potion of Constitution
m) 4 Sky Blue Potions of Grace
n) a Turquoise Ring of Frost
   It provides resistance to fire.  
o) The Jewel 'Elessar' <+1>
   It increases your constitution by 1.  It speeds your
   regeneration (which also increases your hunger).  It cannot
   be harmed by the elements.  It grants you the ability: 
   Strength in Adversity.  
p) The Feanorian Lamp - The Nightlight
   It provides resistance to fear.  It lights the dungeon around
   you.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It grants you the
   ability: Inner Light.  
q) 3 Silmarils
   It sustains your grace.  It grants you the ability to see
   invisible creatures.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.  
r) The Crown of Knowing
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It grants you the
   abilities: Eye for Detail and Lore-Master.  
s) a Crown of Command [+0,1d1]
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  It grants you the
   ability: Song of Mastery.  
t) The Shortsword of Galadriel (+0,1d8) [+3] 2.0 lb
   It sustains your grace.  It cannot be harmed by the elements.
   It grants you the ability: Riposte.  
u) a Longsword (Defender) (+0,2d6) [+2] 3.7 lb
   It cannot be harmed by the elements.  


  [Notes]

Noogie of the Naugrim
Entered Angband on 4 Aug 2013

    Turn     Depth    Note

     557     50 ft    (Armoursmith)
     557     50 ft    (Jeweller)
     557     50 ft    (Enchantment)
     656     50 ft    Made a Set of Gloves of the Forge <+2>  0.5 lb
     787     50 ft    Made a Chalcedony Ring of Accuracy (+2)  0.1 lb
     917     50 ft    Made a Chalcedony Ring of Accuracy (+2)  0.1 lb
   1,359    150 ft    (Power)
   1,764    200 ft    Encountered Gorgol, the Butcher
   1,800    200 ft    Slew Gorgol, the Butcher
   2,122    200 ft    Made a Round Shield of Deflection [+2,1d3]  5.0 lb
   2,244    200 ft    Made a Cloak of Protection [+1,1d1]  2.0 lb
   2,335    200 ft    Made a Pair of Boots of Speed [+0,1d1]  2.0 lb
   3,086    300 ft    (Artifice)
   3,481    300 ft    Made The Crown of Knowing  3.0 lb
   3,659    300 ft    Made a Dwarf Mask of Defiance [-2,1d2] <+1>  8.0 lb
   5,482    400 ft    Fell through a false floor.
   6,437    450 ft    Made The Set of Gloves of Strength <+1>  0.5 lb
   7,364    500 ft    Encountered Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
   7,403    500 ft    Slew Gilim, the Giant of Eruman
   7,735    500 ft    Made The Helm of Clarity [+0,1d2]  5.0 lb
   7,808    550 ft    Encountered Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
   7,852    550 ft    Destroyed Duruin, Least of the Balrogs
   7,855    550 ft    Found The Mail Corslet of Gundor
   8,982    600 ft    Encountered Ulfang the Black
   9,826    600 ft    (Keen Senses)
  10,452    650 ft    (Song of Aule)
  10,452    650 ft    (Song of Sharpness)
  10,452    650 ft    (Unwavering Voice)
  10,831    650 ft    Found The Shortsword of Galadriel
  10,837    650 ft    (Parry)
  11,656    700 ft    Fell through a false floor.
  12,281    750 ft    (Hardiness)
  13,233    800 ft    (Poison Resistance)
  13,356    750 ft    Encountered Belegwath, Balrog of Shadow
  14,010    800 ft    Made a Driftwood Amulet of the Blessed Realm <+1>  0.3 
                      lb 
  14,494    800 ft    (Finesse)
  14,494    800 ft    (Two Weapon Fighting)
  14,988    800 ft    Encountered Oikeroi, Guard of Tevildo
  14,988    800 ft    Encountered Tevildo, Prince of Cats
  15,003    800 ft    Slew Tevildo, Prince of Cats
  15,026    800 ft    Slew Oikeroi, Guard of Tevildo
  16,291    750 ft    Fell through a false floor.
  16,904    750 ft    Found The Dagger of Nargil
  17,214    750 ft    Fell through a false floor.
  17,458    850 ft    (Rauko-Bane)
  17,537    850 ft    Destroyed Belegwath, Balrog of Shadow
  17,578    850 ft    Found The Pair of Boots of Irime
  17,722    850 ft    Encountered Dagorhir, the Elfbane
  17,733    850 ft    Slew Dagorhir, the Elfbane
  17,803    800 ft    (Dodging)
  17,982    800 ft    (Sprinting)
  18,205    800 ft    Encountered Umuiyan, the Doorkeeper
  18,247    800 ft    Slew Umuiyan, the Doorkeeper
  18,418    800 ft    Found The Helm of Curufin
  19,616    850 ft    Made The Feanorian Lamp - The Nightlight  1.0 lb
  19,715    850 ft    Encountered Turkano, Balrog of the Hosts
  19,730    850 ft    Destroyed Turkano, Balrog of the Hosts
  20,252    900 ft    Entered Hoard of the Worm of Greed
  20,784    900 ft    Encountered Glaurung, the Deceiver
  20,791    900 ft    (Constitution)
  20,879    900 ft    Slew Glaurung, the Deceiver
  20,946    900 ft    Found The Jewel 'Elessar'
  21,373    950 ft    Encountered Ancalagon the Black
  21,436    950 ft    Encountered Draugluin, Sire of Werewolves
  21,512    950 ft    Slew Draugluin, Sire of Werewolves
  21,545    950 ft    Slew Ancalagon the Black
  21,549    950 ft    Found The Wolf-Hame of Draugluin
  21,807    950 ft    Found The Hauberk of Maedhros
  22,310    950 ft    Entered Ungoliant's lair
  22,420    950 ft    Encountered Ungoliant, the Gloomweaver
  22,447    950 ft    Slew Ungoliant, the Gloomweaver
  22,491    950 ft    Encountered Shelob, Spider of Darkness
  22,530    950 ft    Slew Shelob, Spider of Darkness
  22,578    950 ft    (Dexterity)
  23,196    900 ft    Made The Pair of Boots of Noogie [+1,1d1] <+1>  2.0 lb 
  23,610    900 ft    Made The Cloak of Noogie [+1]  2.0 lb
  23,833    850 ft    Found The Set of Gloves of Celebrimbor
  24,661    950 ft    Encountered Smaug the Golden
  24,669    950 ft    Slew Smaug the Golden
  25,760    900 ft    Encountered The Deathblade 'Delmereth'
  27,792    950 ft    (Woven Themes)
  27,792    950 ft    (Masterpiece)
  27,810    950 ft    Encountered Thuringwethil, the Vampire Messenger
  27,902    950 ft    Slew Thuringwethil, the Vampire Messenger
  27,904    950 ft    Found The Bat-Fell of Thuringwethil
  28,084    950 ft    Encountered Gorthaur, Servant of Morgoth
  28,107    950 ft    Slew Gorthaur, Servant of Morgoth
  28,388    950 ft    Encountered Vallach, Balrog of Sudden Flame
  28,398    950 ft    Destroyed Vallach, Balrog of Sudden Flame
  28,758    950 ft    Entered Chambers of Thu
  29,279    950 ft    Made The Set of Gloves of Noogie  0.5 lb
  29,377    950 ft    (Song of Slaying)
  29,871    950 ft    Made The Mithril Helm of Clear Cutting (+1) [+0,1d3]  
                      3.5 lb 
  30,058  1,000 ft    Entered Morgoth's throne room
  30,115  1,000 ft    Encountered Morgoth, Lord of Darkness
  30,209  1,000 ft    Found The Massive Iron Crown of Morgoth
  30,241  1,000 ft    Slew Morgoth, Lord of Darkness
  30,241  1,000 ft    Found The Mighty Hammer 'Grond'
  30,352  1,000 ft    Found The Great Axe of Nogrod
  30,402  1,000 ft    Encountered Gothmog, High Captain of Balrogs
  30,418  1,000 ft    Destroyed Gothmog, High Captain of Balrogs
  30,437  1,000 ft    Found The Serpentine Ring of Barahir
  31,389  1,000 ft    Cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown
  31,396  1,000 ft    Cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown
  31,675  1,000 ft    Cut a Silmaril from Morgoth's crown
  32,319    950 ft    Encountered Maeglin, Betrayer of Gondolin
  32,334    950 ft    Slew Maeglin, Betrayer of Gondolin
  32,334    950 ft    Found The Galvorn Armour of Maeglin
  32,353    950 ft    (Song of the Trees)
  33,013    700 ft    Encountered Lungorthin, Lord of Balrogs
  33,031    700 ft    Destroyed Lungorthin, Lord of Balrogs
  34,526     Gates    Entered The Gates of Angband
  34,609     Gates    Encountered Carcharoth, the Jaws of Thirst
  34,644     Gates    Slew Carcharoth, the Jaws of Thirst

  35,865     Gates    You escaped the Iron Hells on 05 August 2013.
  35,865     Gates    You brought back all three Silmarils from Morgoth's 
                      crown! 




  ['Score' 141364134]

**BlueFish** · August 17, 2013, 19:44

Originally posted by BlueFish

I've been experimenting with different Dwarf Master Smith starts. My stat allocation is 2/3/5/2.

I'm liking the "jeweler" build currently. Armorsmith, jeweler, enchantment. Take 7 smithing at the start along with 3 melee and 4 evasion. Go up the up-stairs at 50' so your forge is on an easier 50' level and build gloves of forge +2, then 2 Rings of Accuracy +2. Two end-game quality rings right off the bat is pretty fun, and you don't have to mortgage too much for it.

In all cases, a Crown of Lore (Loremaster artifact crown) is created asap, usually second or third forge. Another favorite artifact is The Nightlight, a feanorian lamp of brightness with fear resist (a common hole in my resists). Easily accessible smithing level.

My new favorite first artifact with this build is a combo Lore-Master / Song of freedom crown. I used to put Eye for Detail onto the Lore-Master crown, but Song of Freedom seems much more useful, and works perfectly as a seldom-used swap, as Eye for Detail did. This build has 14 smithing after taking Artifice (assuming the forge gloves didn't get zapped by acid), which is exactly how much that crown takes.

I really enjoy smithing builds, mostly for the artifact forging. It's fun to mix and match abilities and resistances and so on, depending on whatever drops you've already found.

**taptap** · August 17, 2013, 22:24

I like Song of Freedom and it is good to get it cheap and without Elbereth requirement, but in my experience you need half-way decent song to benefit from it for rubble / door / trap / chest clearing - the freedom of movement is of course always part of it.

**BlueFish** · August 18, 2013, 00:06

Originally posted by taptap

I like Song of Freedom and it is good to get it cheap and without Elbereth requirement, but in my experience you need half-way decent song to benefit from it for rubble / door / trap / chest clearing - the freedom of movement is of course always part of it.

From what I've seen so far, a nominal investment of 4 in song makes it pretty useful for the locks and traps and secret doors, and, after a few turns, it does clear rubble. I think whatever Perception skill you have does stack with the Freedom bonus, as well.

One of the good things about having Song of Freedom is that it frees up an inventory slot that might be taken up by a shovel. Though you still have to decide whether to take a mattock, if you find one. I guess I would, since some treasure rooms require tunneling through more than just rubble.

**taptap** · August 18, 2013, 00:34

Originally posted by BlueFish

From what I've seen so far, a nominal investment of 4 in song makes it pretty useful for the locks and traps and secret doors, and, after a few turns, it does clear rubble. I think whatever Perception skill you have does stack with the Freedom bonus, as well.

One of the good things about having Song of Freedom is that it frees up an inventory slot that might be taken up by a shovel. Though you still have to decide whether to take a mattock, if you find one. I guess I would, since some treasure rooms require tunneling through more than just rubble.

Yes - I like it too, but you will need to increase that investment deeper in Angband in my experience - which is fine if you want to take Sharpness anyway. It also gives freedom of movement and can remove webs and pits. (If you ever want to fight a dragon or another entrancing enemy but don't want to carry spare boots / rings etc.)

**taptap** · August 25, 2013, 11:36

I wonder whether early / instant Weaponsmith / Enchantment could work for a polemaster build with Feanor or Naugrim at least. Say Feanor with 2/5/4/3 2k xp into smithing and 1,5k each for melee / evasion. I am not sure whether you get sth. useful for 10 pt. - a glaive of gondolin should speed up the early game a lot and with slowly increasing smithing ...

**BlueFish** · September 27, 2013, 04:11

I've never taken weaponsmith as a smith - artifacts being so superior to anything you could make, in general. But there are two uses for it where I can see it might pay off - making a Mattock of Belegost, which often can't be found throughout any given game, and making an artifact +3 smithing hammer. Compared to my old builds, such a hammer would turn every forge into an enchanted forge, effectively. There's also the possibility of forging an artifact hammer with some smithing ability on it, but then you couldn't use the +3 smithing hammer so that doesn't make a lot of sense.

So I'm going Nogrod (as usual) and starting with stats of 2/1/5/4. Starting skills are 4 melee, 3 evasion, and 7 smithing. Initial smithing abilities are weaponsmith, jeweler, and artistry. That gives 13 smithing, allowing for 2 +2 accuracy rings at the first forge. The artistry is used to make a battleaxe at the first forge with one extra damage side (3d5), 5 pounds. That'll allow Charge to be used to full extent. Add Power and that's a heck of a lot of damage, basically replacing Slay weapons.

The high grace will hopefully allow for future Song skills, probably working my way up to Song of Mastery again. I'd like to use Whirlwind Attack with Mastery, they would seem to go together well. Just wish Whirlwind didn't have a useless prereq.

The loremaster/Song of Freedom crown will have to wait this time, but I'll make it eventually.

Will see if I can skip enchant this time - otherwise I'd be taking every smithing ability eventually, which would be prohibitive even with the two free smithing abilities Nogrod get. I guess I'll be making lots of artifacts. I'm already damning those 2 use forges!

**BlueFish** · September 27, 2013, 08:06

Had a very promising and fun start with that guy tonight. A few of them died very early after a few minutes, as you would expect, but after the first forge he becomes pretty survivable. That 3d5 battle axe and the two +2 accuracy rings are pretty potent. Both take exactly 13 smithing, which he starts with. That 13 smithing seems a sweet spot, lots of very useful stuff takes exactly that. The second forge he found was two uses (of course!) but he was able to build [+1, 1d1] gauntlets and a [+1, 1d1] crown. Both nice items which cost exactly 13 smithing.

He made it all the way to Power and Charge and Dodge and Sprinting and Artifice. It was working well at 400' till my newbsmanship with the ID game caught up with me. I put on an un-ID'ed amulet which apparently was Haunted Dreams. The shadow trapped me between it and a blue 'o' in a corridor. I was running from the 'o' at the time. I ran into the shadow a couple times before I noticed, and died.

Sil: Smithing starts?

Sil: Smithing starts?

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