Sil: Smithing (observations)

[taptap]

Sceptres: Can have all the melee abilities, but not e.g. Majesty.

Arrow: Artifice arrows are pointless, as you can only have up to +4 bonus (when you can make almost as good ego items in bunches of two dozen w/o using 3 forge uses). Oh, wait with Artistry it is possible to make an up to +7 arrow if you start with the +3 arrows as the base. Easy to miss the option, but I guess this is ok. But it definitely is odd that it is more difficult to put a slay on a single arrow than to put the slay on a bow.

UI: When you switch between Artifice menu and Numbers menu and back again selected skills are not shown anymore in the artifact description, but are still selected in the menu. If you try to deselect / reselect the skill it shows twice in the artifact description (+ and is calculated as such in the difficulties). Basically I have to redo the whole selection process again.

Accessibility: Smithing is far less accessible than any other feature of Sil. Everything else is either explained in the manual or accessible in the text files, but before you have all the base abilities and artifice you never see how awesome smithing really is (especially if you bought enchantment and thought artifice is just a somewhat extended version of enchantment).

Forges: It really helps to dive faster (if you survive) as you get more of the useful staffs (Revelation / Treasure) that are so very important for a smith. It is very much possible - for a slow player like me - that you don't find enough forges after you finished your smithing kit. Without changing overall number of forges, having a guaranteed forge at 900 or 950' in one of the "palace" blocks upon first entering the depth would relieve me of quite a bit of pressure. (I had a smith once going up and down between 950-900' until his only staff of revelations was empty without revealing a forge if I remember correctly.)

Especially in the middle game with already large floors, but no staffs for autoexploration I spent a lot of time walking around (with a stealthy smith w/o chance to make much equipment I felt very much underpowered for a very long time and then suddenly - apart from being killed by Morgoth in the official run - nothing could withstand me, but in the private rerun it sure was cool to kill Morgoth and all his creatures while wearing literally no armor, singing and shooting - I had a warding glyph though )

Power: Smithing is still tremendously powerful - especially for people who don't engage in lengthy melee and can afford to wear robes and crowns, but have the killing power to claim the forges. I had +9 archery and +5 song modifiers (and additionally +2 grace, +1 strength) and a whopping +13 (-1) stealth modifier (this one mostly found items, but I wouldn't wear a +4/+5 shadow cloak if not smithing had increased my light level) when I geared up for the throne room (+ some useful abilities on the items). All this despite having Maeglin run away when I tried to carefully pick off his entourage and not using the 2nd hand (I wasn't sure I find enough forges) and not draining my skill, so I ended w/ 30 max.difficulty in the final normal forge (more in the enchanted).

Perception / smithing: The possibility to get loremaster for cheap (500xp and no cost increase for other abilities) is a big help for all chars that rely on perception abilities, i.e. hunters + assassins. But of course as 1st time player my 1st smith was a no-stealth Naugrim. Another benefit for hunters and assassins is that they can benefit from robes and crowns as they are not as much relying on helms and armor.

Artifact weapons / artifice: The abundance of artifacts in the game (especially swords) makes smithing artifact weapons look quite pointless to me. Many have a level out of reach for all but or even the most experienced smith. As opposed to the collection of artifact swords I invariably end with (last time I had both Amras, Amrod - both very good for hunters + Glamdring, could have been more if I not dived past the 700-800' range quickly) I never even once found the one of the major jewellery artifacts (Melian's Ring, Nymphelos etc.) although I have been lucky with stat-raising ego-items sometimes. Can something be done with the rarity scores of the different items?

[taptap]

Melting: It would be nice if it would still be possible to melt Mithril items in exhausted forges (it doesn't use up resources when the forge is not exhausted after all).

Accuracy gives bonus to melee and archery (quite high ones) so I don't understand why the weaker melee-only bonus is blocked in artifice menu for rings.

[MarvinPA]

Melting: It would be nice if it would still be possible to melt Mithril items in exhausted forges (it doesn't use up resources when the forge is not exhausted after all).

Agreed.

I really want to make it possible to explore smithing options without actually having the abilities but the smithing code is pretty complex so it's sort of difficult.

[half]

I really want to make it possible to explore smithing options without actually having the abilities but the smithing code is pretty complex so it's sort of difficult.

Indeed! I am going to try to add this for the next version, but it will involve hours of coding and debugging. The smithing menu is my coding nemesis.

[taptap]

Indeed! I am going to try to add this for the next version, but it will involve hours of coding and debugging. The smithing menu is my coding nemesis.

In my opinion the most important thing about the smithing menu is fixing the bugs in it. It often deselects already selected abilities when you return from numbers to artifice (and do something) and it sometimes deselects the numbers when you add a new modifier. If I don't plan my artifacts on paper but tinker around, as I tend to do, I always end up leaving the menu and starting again more than once before I get it right and everything stays selected (without being selected twice - an odd possibility when reselecting deselected abilities).

[wobbly]

I also have this problem with the smithing menu. It's the 1 place that the game really bogs down for me, constantly having to re-do things when smithing because I've pressed the wrong key.

While we're discussing smithing, is there any chance of adding a mithril spear? I tried to get a polearms master going recently & figure if I can just build a spear light enough it might be quite lethal.

[taptap]

I also have this problem with the smithing menu. It's the 1 place that the game really bogs down for me, constantly having to re-do things when smithing because I've pressed the wrong key.

While we're discussing smithing, is there any chance of adding a mithril spear? I tried to get a polearms master going recently & figure if I can just build a spear light enough it might be quite lethal.

Can't you smith spears with 2lb weight already? I always envision a spear being mostly wood, not metal. 2lb and branded is probably the best you get - or Aeglos.

Mithril shortsword but yes, I guess this would be overpowered.

[BlueFish]

The smithing menu is riddled with bugs, but the worst that happens is that you have to be very careful to re-read your artifact description before you start forging. it's possible to lose an artifact's ability randomly while you are choosing another ability, and it's possible to get the same ability listed twice, both of which you pay for.

Exiting the smithing menu and re-starting it is the most you ever have to do when this happens though.

[half]

The smithing menu is riddled with bugs

As far as I know, there are only one or two bugs. Fixing them is on my to-do list, but it is a very difficult (and boring) piece of code and will probably take many hours away from adding features / fixing game balance etc. If people wanted to carefully delineate the bug(s), that would be very helpful. (i.e. working out the simplest precise description of what goes wrong, which will probably determine whether there is one point of failure, two, or many).

[half]

I also have this problem with the smithing menu. It's the 1 place that the game really bogs down for me, constantly having to re-do things when smithing because I've pressed the wrong key.

While we're discussing smithing, is there any chance of adding a mithril spear? I tried to get a polearms master going recently & figure if I can just build a spear light enough it might be quite lethal.

Try the opposite approach, it is quite good: Strength, a heavy polearm such as a glaive, Focused Attack, and Knock Back. Polearm Mastery + Knock Back is very powerful.

[taptap]

As far as I know, there are only one or two bugs. Fixing them is on my to-do list, but it is a very difficult (and boring) piece of code and will probably take many hours away from adding features / fixing game balance etc. If people wanted to carefully delineate the bug(s), that would be very helpful. (i.e. working out the simplest precise description of what goes wrong, which will probably determine whether there is one point of failure, two, or many).

From memory (my only recent smithing save finished the game):
* chosen abilities are (always/sometimes) deselected when reentering any skill tree in the artifice menu after returning from the numbers menu (= you can select it twice or you may end surprisingly without the chosen e.g. making an artifact plain crown).
* chosen numbers for modifiers are deselected when you return to artifice menu to choose another modifier

My suspicion is that this is related to initialization of the artifice menu, but you can't avoid it because you have to switch between artifice and numbers menu if you add any skill / stat bonus or other modifier at all.

Another case is when you have both artistry and artifice. If you take an arrow modify numbers (+3), go to artifice, go back to numbers you get a different result (+7) than when you go to artifice directly and then to the numbers menu (I believe, it is hard to test for me as I don't have a save with all smithing abilities). I never smithed high end weaponry having both artistry and artifice but I guess it is the same there - the sequence you select attack and defence modifiers (before or after entering the artifice menu) matters as far as I remember.

[half]

Thanks, that is very useful.

[BlueFish]

Here's reproduction steps for losing a chosen ability in artifice smithing:

Choose Crown, to go Artifice, choose Perception->Loremaster, back out and go to Resistances. Upon opening that menu, note that the artifact description no longer contains Lore Master. Back out of Resistances, back to Perception, note that Lore-Master instantly re-appears.

This doesn't happen with every pairing of "chosen ability" and "menu opened after that ability was chosen". But there are others.

Similarly, choosing an artifact ability and then backing out of the Artifice menu, then going back to Artifice, erases the artifact's abilities. Though they are still selected if you go to the previously chosen ability's parent menu.

That probably has something to do with having the same ability chosen twice, but I haven't found an easy repro for that.

[half]

Here's reproduction steps for losing a chosen ability in artifice smithing:

Thanks. That's exactly what I'm after.

[BlueFish]

This has probably been suggested before, but I think it would be neat to be able to improve forged items. You wouldn't necessarily be able to improve found items, but stuff you'd originally forged could be improved at a forge at normal smithing cost, as if the improved item had been created from scratch. That way, as your smithing score improves, you could add bonuses to your forged items and they could grow with you. I think that would be neat.