Sil: another 'feature' suggestion

[manchu]

How about NO WORMS! I'll be beating this horse until its a grease stain. There is no place for maniacally breeding worms in a LOTR's game. I've heard of dungeons overrun with orcs, but worms. Nope. Nadda. What are these things on? Steroids, viagra and fertility drugs? I'm sorta willing to put up with them in a regular band. But in one where you are penalised for excessively using stairs to abandon a level over run with worms it just seems grossly unbalanced. I am borderline gonna modify my version and any subsequent ones to remove all worms. I bust my balls trying to clear off the other creatures only to repeatedly find the forge I'm trying to access is now overrun with worms. Leaving me with only one 'realistic' option, abandon it. Hoping I get another one for the smith I'm trying to run. Its not like its easy to re-tool midstream into another build. Sil offers no such luxuries. At least, not in my experience. I enjoy this variant immensely as its removed a great deal of tedium from the game and made every choice important. I like that. I don't like worms. I'm okay running away from a pack of wolves, orcs, werewolves, rauko, etc that look too tough to take on. But when I've gotta flee for fear of being overcome by worms, that strains game play beyond where I think it should be.

[manchu]

and now I feel better, but also like a whiner...

[debo]

I personally like worms, although I find I'm still a bit confused about how they work. I thought you had to be within 5 squares of them or so in order for them to reproduce, but I've witnessed situations where this was clearly not the case (i.e. coming into a room for the first time and finding 30 of them).

Worms in early forges can be tough. Whenever I walk into a dark room in the early game that I think might be a forge, I basically:

a) take 2 steps in

b) take 2 steps out

c) see if anything shouts / chases me out

d) deal with those

e) dive back in and do a quick scout around the entire room.

Even if I'm being chased by orcs and other more immediately dangerous monsters, I will preferentially target worms until they are dead if I catch wind of them in a big room. Either that, or I will shut them in a room by closing doors on them and GTFO.

I will also chase and kill Nether worms with extreme prejudice.

Learn how to "worm dance" -- i.e. they're all slow, so you can often dodge in, take a whack, and dodge out so that they don't hit you (in cases of acid worms, stat drainers etc.) If you have a big weapon, use it. Worms have basically no evasion but a fair amt of HP, and you want to kill them in one hit if possible.

Hope this helps somewhat

[clouded]

but I've witnessed situations where this was clearly not the case (i.e. coming into a room for the first time and finding 30 of them)

This is probably due to noise, using song of slaying early will present a lot of situations where worms a room or two away will get out of control.

Aside from what debo says, a herb of rage will do a lot to sort out a mass of worms. But yes, not letting them get into that state is the real solution. You can question whether worms fit thematically (I don't see anything particularly wrong with the dungeon having some random dungeon monsters, the game is pretty limited in monsters already), but I think they work well in gameplay. The reason they are tolerable in any other variant is because they are completely irrelevant there.

[debo]

I was always under the impression that they had to be within a certain distance of your _actual character_ to reproduce.

If all that it takes is for them to hear you and become wary... well, maybe that's why manchu is having such a problem with them, esp since it seems he's a big fan of Naugrim

I think I'd prefer to e.g. force them to have LOS of you in order for them to split, but yeah I don't think it's gamebreaking the way it is now. Annoying, but not gamebreaking. I'd much rather have shadow spiders and shadow bats lose their blindess effect than this change

[Psi]

I'd much rather have shadow spiders and shadow bats lose their blindess effect than this change

Can bats really blind you?

[debo]

Can bats really blind you?

Apparently I had this wrong. Of course, most times it's impossible to tell which one you're fighting -- unless you stupidly walk into an open, lit room, you'll rarely see if it's moving erratically (bat). If it is a spider, though, walking into an open room and bringing it in with you is a really bad idea

I'd be happy with shadow spiders being normal speed, dark, and blinding, and have shadow bats be fast and dark -- then they'd each get two cool things!

[HallucinationMushroom]

I've been blinded by one of the flying beasties before, so, yes!... couldn't tell you which brand it was. All those b's look the same to me. I usually kill them so fast it never happens, but I tend to get blinded most when I stumble upon a belfry trap, or whatever you call it.

Edit:Am I wrong? Can't the Gorcrows poke out your eyes?

[debo]

I've been blinded by one of the flying beasties before, so, yes!... couldn't tell you which brand it was. All those b's look the same to me. I usually kill them so fast it never happens, but I tend to get blinded most when I stumble upon a belfry trap, or whatever you call it.

Edit:Am I wrong? Can't the Gorcrows poke out your eyes?

Gorcrows can, but I was talking about shadow bats specifically. Shadow bats are level 12 and spiders level 13 (or something like this), so they tend to show up concurrently. I'd always assumed that both could blind because usually it's just a cloud of darkness chasing me and

It bites you!!
It bites you!!!
[You try to do something ineffectual.]
It bites you!
It bites you!!!!
You are blinded!

I just checked the monsters file and only shadow spiders get the blindy-bite, though -- which is sort of a neat trick, when you think about it

[HallucinationMushroom]

Oh, my bad.

[manchu]

Really with shadow spiders/bats I will usually attempt to get into an open lit room. The one extra light value will often be enough to illuminate them when they are next to you. Therefore, eliminating the 'invisibility' penalties incurred. That is assuming you have enough light for the extra point to do the trick. Once visible I find them easy to dispatch.
I agree debo, I think the Naugrim goes banging about waking shit up. Once wakened the worms do seem to multiply from there. Foolishly attempting to forge an item one game, nether worms destroyed at least a quarter of the level. So its not just once they are close by. I would prefer the suggested behaviour of LOS multiplying.
Unrelated...why am I more successful with Edain and Naugrim? For some reason I cannot get a Noldor past about 600 with any consistency. Weird.

[taptap]

Unrelated...why am I more successful with Edain and Naugrim? For some reason I cannot get a Noldor past about 600 with any consistency. Weird.

You are more careful and conscious about your choices? That is what happens to me.

For worms: Closing doors helps a lot.

[manchu]

Yeah, I get the worm thing. Doesn't mean I can't hate em...

[Infinitum]

Lining up another kick on this horse becasue, y'know, worms? Anyhow, what about making them undead? Or rather, what remains of Maiar/Raukar/Balrogs/whatever whose physical bodies have been destroyed in ages past, yet whose spirits are yet bound to Arda (and are drawn to morgoth because Evil).

Basically they are weak and spiteful but call others of their kinds to their aid should they notice the player character. Even the worm abilities kinda sorta make sense if you just squint a little and try not to think too hard about it. As for a name, [w]hispers? It would keep the monster glyph intact and even thematically link them to W's if they are slain by weapons of final rest (which would also give those an early-game use).

Oh, and there's precedent in Tolkien canon:

(Gandalf): "If [the one ring] is destroyed, then [Sauron] will fall, and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed."

‘The realm of Sauron is ended!’ said Gandalf. ‘The Ring-bearer has fulfilled his Quest.’ And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.

[debo]

Uh, that's actually pretty cool.