EasySil

**half** · January 12, 2012, 11:00

Originally posted by will_asher

Half, I hope you aren't offended by this. I mean, I did it because I like a lot of things about Sil. I don't plan on ditributing it, but if someone's really interested and half doesn't mind, I could share it.

Will, I'm absolutely fine with you modifying the code for your own use, and emailing it to people who contact you as well. A fork that split the player base at this time (9 days after release) would be very bad for the game though, and sad for the 8 years on and off that I've put into developing it. So long as it is mostly a private thing though, I have no problems.

(I should note that I have no *legal* power to stop anyone doing anything they like with the source code as it is GPL.)

**will_asher** · January 12, 2012, 19:07

Originally posted by half

Will, I'm absolutely fine with you modifying the code for your own use, and emailing it to people who contact you as well. A fork that split the player base at this time (9 days after release) would be very bad for the game though, and sad for the 8 years on and off that I've put into developing it. So long as it is mostly a private thing though, I have no problems.

There will be no splitting of the player base. The general public seems to disagree with me about most *band design choices which is why I made DaJAngband (which has a miniscule player base).
I play to relax and chill, and game designing is as much fun (if not more) than actually playing for me. I'd probably end up making a mod of any *band I really liked (or just putting some aspects of it into DaJAngband). So I hope you take it as a compliment that there's modded version after only nine days.

**buzzkill** · January 12, 2012, 20:10

I like DaJ.

**will_asher** · January 12, 2012, 21:32

Originally posted by buzzkill

I like DaJ.

I was about to say "almost no player base" but then I thought of you and changed it to miniscule (which is a step bigger than almost none).

EDIT: To contrast, DaJAngband has 26 dumps which are not mine over a period of 3.5 years (not including competitions). Sil has 22 dumps over a period of ~10 days, none of which belong to the maintainer.

**Antoine** · January 12, 2012, 22:04

half, you might like to consider stealing some of WIll's changes (perhaps not the ones that make the game easier).

A.

**bio_hazard** · January 12, 2012, 22:19

Originally posted by will_asher

Code:

  [Sil 1.0DAJmod Character Dump]

 Name   Rip           Age       30       Str   3 =  2          +1
 Sex    Male          Height   5'8       Dex   3 =  4          -1
 Race   Halfling      Weight   179       Con   4 =  3          +1
 House  Took                             Gra   2 =  3          -1

That's the tallest hobbit EVER! The weight is probably about right though

**LostTemplar** · January 12, 2012, 22:23

I have playtested Sil for a while and have a couple of proposed changes, however they will not make game easier but slightly harder instead.

So, the first one is about evasion skill. Currently it is too extreme, it is allmost useless if it is low and rediculously powerfull when pumped up. I propose to change it into something like "toughness" so e.g one point of it give 1/3 evasion, 1/3 protection and 1 HP.

Another thougth is about skill gaining. I dont like the fact, that it is possible to accumulate XP pool, and then learn things when needed. It is simply not logical and slightly abusive. So I propose to add some way to distribute incoming XP without XP pool, so the player can choose priority of his skills, by assigning certain percentage of incoming XP to each skill. The same thing with abilities, if a given ability is selected to be learned, all XP goes into it instead of just increasing the skill untill it is learned.

**buzzkill** · January 12, 2012, 22:41

Originally posted by LostTemplar

So I propose to add some way to distribute incoming XP without XP pool, so the player can choose priority of his skills, by assigning certain percentage of incoming XP to each skill. The same thing with abilities, if a given ability is selected to be learned, all XP goes into it instead of just increasing the skill untill it is learned.

Isn't that the "Civilization" model. Where you select something to research or improve and then your progress gets put toward it until you achieve it or switch to something else. Can't be said that it hasn't been tested.

**Magnate** · January 12, 2012, 22:44

Originally posted by buzzkill

Isn't that the "Civilization" model. Where you select something to research or improve and then your progress gets put toward it until you achieve it or switch to something else. Can't be said that it hasn't been tested.

It's how Crawl deals with player-guided xp spending without the kind of illogic/abuse that LostTemplar describes. IMO it works extremely well in Crawl - I haven't tried Sil yet, but what LostTemplar describes is one of my biggest disappointments with Sangband.

**half** · January 12, 2012, 23:10

Originally posted by LostTemplar

So, the first one is about evasion skill. Currently it is too extreme, it is allmost useless if it is low and rediculously powerfull when pumped up. I propose to change it into something like "toughness" so e.g one point of it give 1/3 evasion, 1/3 protection and 1 HP.

I don't really see the problem with the current system. What you say about being very weak when low and powerful when high is true of many other skills too, but seems to me to be a virtue if anything.

Another thougth is about skill gaining. I dont like the fact, that it is possible to accumulate XP pool, and then learn things when needed. It is simply not logical and slightly abusive. So I propose to add some way to distribute incoming XP without XP pool, so the player can choose priority of his skills, by assigning certain percentage of incoming XP to each skill. The same thing with abilities, if a given ability is selected to be learned, all XP goes into it instead of just increasing the skill untill it is learned.

It is true that it is somewhat unrealistic and useful, but I'm not sure that this change would be better. It adds more stuff that the player needs to fiddle with and requires more interface to do it, without much improvement in gameplay. It is also not much more realistic, as for example you can use identifying items (or any thing other than archery) to make you better at archery. The only difference is that you have to decide beforehand that the identification will make you better at archery instead of deciding after doing the identification.

Crawl got around this by also adding a system where you had to also do the activity which needed improving. This was widely regarded as a neat bit of simulation, but bad for a game since it increased tedium and it has eventually been removed.

**Narvius** · January 12, 2012, 23:42

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ktmZ0Hn8WD8

This is, surprisingly, kind of related, despite being a review of a Zelda game.
At one point, the guy says something along the lines of (after having thoroughly and well-argumentedly trashed the game he is reviewing) "And this, Nintendo, is why YOU design the games. The average gamer has no idea what (s)he wants in a game."

I just thought that this is a neat thought. I mean, you are repeatedly defending your design standpoint and stuff, half.

**will_asher** · January 13, 2012, 01:24

my best game so far: I even killed a mountain troll and a couple orc champions.
(Wilkins house has stats of Feanor but perception affinity instead of smithing.)
I had to go without light for a little while between my torch dying and finding the lantern.

Code:

  [Sil 1.0DAJmod Character Dump]

 Name   Marcus        Age    1,069       Str   2
 Sex    Male          Height   6'9       Dex   5
 Race   Noldor        Weight   165       Con   4
 House  Wilkins                          Gra   3

 Game Turn    6,866   Melee  (+10,3d7)   Melee       10 =  6  +5  -2  +1
 Exp Pool     2,930   Bows    (+8,1d8)   Archery      8 =  2  +5      +1
 Total Exp   12,970   Armor   [+9,3-7]   Evasion      9 =  5  +5  -1
 Burden       137.8                      Stealth     10 =  6  +5  -1
 Max Burden   144.0   Health     -1:41   Perception   8 =  3  +3  +1  +1
 Depth         350'   Voice      34:34   Will         7 =  4  +3
 Min Depth     200'                      Smithing     3 =  0  +3
 Light Radius     2                      Song         3 =  0  +3

 You are one of several children of a bard You are one of several
 children of a Sindar prince. You have light grey eyes, straight black
 hair, and a fair complexion.


  [Last Messages]

> You hit the Orc warrior.
> The Orc warrior shouts a warning.
> The Orc warrior notices you.
> The Orc warrior hits you.
> You miss the Orc warrior.
> The Orc warrior misses you.
> You hit the Orc warrior!
> You have slain the Orc warrior.
> You hit the Orc warrior.
> The Orc warrior hits you.
> Low hitpoint warning!
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> You miss the Orc warrior.
> The Orc warrior hits you.
> You die.


  [Character Equipment]

a) a Bastard Sword (-2,3d5) [+1]
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  
b) a Shortbow (+0,1d7)
   It can shoot arrows 12 squares (with your current strength).
c) a Beryl Ring of Perception <+1>
   It improves your perception by 1.  
d) an Emerald Ring of Dexterity <+0>
   It increases your dexterity by 0.  It sustains your dexterity.
   
e) (nothing)
f) a Brass Lantern (with 2475 turns of light)
g) Leather Armour [-1,1d4]
h) (nothing)
i) (nothing)
j) a Helm of Listening [-1,1d2]
   It grants you the ability: Listen.  
k) (nothing)
l) a Pair of Leather Boots [+0,1d1]
m) 99 Arrows
   They can be shot 12 squares (with your current strength and bow).
n) 92 Arrows
   They can be shot 12 squares (with your current strength and bow).


  [Character Inventory]

a) 2 Wrinkled Herbs of Rage
b) 2 Pale Herbs of Emptiness
c) 2 Fragments of Lembas
d) 4 Vermilion Potions of Slow Poison
e) 3 Cloudy Potions of Quickness
f) a Gnarled Staff of Understanding (3 charges)
g) a Maple Staff of Summoning (8 charges)
h) a Wooden Torch (with 1 turns of light) {@w4}
i) Studded Leather [-2,1d6]
j) a Round Shield [+0,1d3]
k) a Dagger (+0,1d5) {@t1}
   It can be thrown effectively (10 squares).  
l) a Rapier (+1,1d6) [+2]
   
m) a Shortsword (+0,1d8) [+1]
   
n) a Longsword (+0,2d5) [+1]
   
o) 7 Spears (-1,1d9) {@t2}
   It can be thrown effectively (5 squares).  It does extra
   damage when wielded with both hands.  It counts as a type of
   polearm.  
p) a Great Spear (-1,1d13) [+1] {@t4}
   It requires both hands to wield it properly.  It counts as a
   type of polearm.  
q) a Trident of Opportunity (-1,1d9) [+1]
   It can be thrown effectively (4 squares).  It grants you the
   ability: Opportunist.  It does extra damage when wielded with
   both hands.  It counts as a type of polearm.  
r) a Glaive (-1,2d8) [+1]
   It requires both hands to wield it properly.  It counts as a
   type of polearm.  
s) 2 Throwing Axes (+0,2d4) {@t3}
   It can be thrown effectively (8 squares).  
t) a Battle Axe (-3,3d5)
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  
u) a War Hammer (-2,4d1)
   It does extra damage when wielded with both hands.  
v) a Shovel (-3,3d1) <+1>
   It improves your tunneling by 1.  It requires both hands to
   wield it properly.

**Magnate** · January 13, 2012, 09:36

Originally posted by half

Crawl got around this by also adding a system where you had to also do the activity which needed improving. This was widely regarded as a neat bit of simulation, but bad for a game since it increased tedium and it has eventually been removed.

Oooh, I didn't know that. Mind you, Crawl's dev pace has put even us to shame recently; I must be about fifteen versions out of date by now.

**bio_hazard** · January 13, 2012, 17:56

Originally posted by Magnate

Oooh, I didn't know that. Mind you, Crawl's dev pace has put even us to shame recently; I must be about fifteen versions out of date by now.

It sounds better than it actually worked in operation. It worked well for things you would normally do anyway, but the mechanic came off as kind of strange for things you were not yet good at (e.g. Kill a monster, get XP, immediately read a bunch of scrolls). It wasn't horrible, but the XP distribution game became more important than the gameplay itself.

EasySil

EasySil

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