Sil

[half]

I especially like the "EXP consistently for doing things beyond the actual killing" aspect---great grind deflater and conceptually allows for folks to challenge more full-bodied builds.

Yes, it seems to work quite well. I've had a character make it more than Halfway to Morgoth without any points in Melee, Archery, or Evasion (the combat skills).

I noticed a spot that said something like "not yet" on a graphical mode field---I wonder if Shockbolt's excellent stuff could function with Sil? Or that Unified NPP 32x32 one recently making great strides at being all-inclusive, yet specific to each?

I'd love to get Shockbolt's tiles working with Sil. I didn't even know that tiles currently work with Sil, as they don't work on Macs and checking the version of NPP that Sil forked from, I see that it didn't work on Macs then either. To get Shockbolt's tiles working, I think I need PNG support and transparency, which I don't know how to do. I might need to wait until they are working with V for Mac and then ask those kind souls who achieved it what is involved. I really think that Shockbolt's tiles are one of the best things to happen to Angband in recent years and that we really need to use them to their best potential.

[half]

Interesting. You mention in-game high scores. If they are indeed useful, can you expose them in the character dump in the next version? We could then start scoring Ladder by them.

Scatha is basically right about the scoring method, it is pretty much a lexical ordering based on several different areas, though it might include one more component. I think the easiest solution is probably for me to put a score-like number on the character dumps in the next version. It won't really be a numerical score, but will give the correct ordering.

For example, a character at dungeon level 18 (900 ft) who took 12,345 turns would get a score like:

18 * 100,000 + (100,000 - 12,345) = 1,887,655

However the numbers will actually be a little longer than this to add a bit more information. If I had such a 'score' number is there a limit as to how big it can go? 2,147,483,647? That would probably be enough.

[half]

Any attempt to resize any window except the main window results in immediate crash. I am running windows xp.

That doesn't sound good! I hope you didn't lose much (Sil autosaves when you use a staircase). Is anyone else having this problem? (Save before testing!) It certainly doesn't happen on the Mac build, and I haven't heard it reported by any playtesters, though it is possible it snuck in late in development.

[Seany C]

Hurrah - another First Age variant and it clashes far less with FaA than I feared. I've not played Sang but it feels more like how I imagine a First Age version of that...

That doesn't sound good! I hope you didn't lose much (Sil autosaves when you use a staircase). Is anyone else having this problem? (Save before testing!) It certainly doesn't happen on the Mac build, and I haven't heard it reported by any playtesters, though it is possible it snuck in late in development.

Good news and bad news:

Good news: resizing various windows seems to work fine in Windows XP here (Windows XP, 2002, SP3).

Bad news: I don't seem to have got the hang of how to rest yet - when wanting to rest ('R'), the prompt asks 'for how many turns?' and then, regardless of response, gives a 'Command:' prompt- any key pressed then seems to cancel the attempt to rest.

[Scatha]

Bad news: I don't seem to have got the hang of how to rest yet - when wanting to rest ('R'), the prompt asks 'for how many turns?' and then, regardless of response, gives a 'Command:' prompt- any key pressed then seems to cancel the attempt to rest.

I'm afraid that this is because the commands were shuffled around a bit, and 'R' is 'R'epeat Command. You can rest until healed with 'Z', or 'z' to just rest/pass for a single turn. (I suppose you could also rest via 'R' by repeating the 'z' command, but I don't think this is what you were trying to do.)

--

Some testing on the resizing windows (on Windows 7). I'm getting crashes if I try to change the size or visibility of any of the windows except the main one, but only just after starting the game. The only places I'm managing to get a crash are the main menu and race selection, and these only if I've never been past here -- even selecting a house and going back stops the crashes. Is this the same behaviour you're having, Scorch?

[Storch]

Good news: resizing various windows seems to work fine in Windows XP here (Windows XP, 2002, SP3).

I have the same version. I will investigate further how it works on other computers.

One question: the combat rolls windows seem unnecesarilly big to contain just two rows. Perharps in some situations there could be more rows? If not, I suggest to make it just two or three rows to better fit multiple windows on the screen. Resize doesn't help, because of the empty space between those two rows.

[pav]

For example, a character at dungeon level 18 (900 ft) who took 12,345 turns would get a score like:

18 * 100,000 + (100,000 - 12,345) = 1,887,655

However the numbers will actually be a little longer than this to add a bit more information. If I had such a 'score' number is there a limit as to how big it can go? 2,147,483,647? That would probably be enough.

Yeah, numeric value in Chardump would be best. Yes, MAXINT/2 is the actual max on the Ladder.

[half]

One question: the combat rolls windows seem unnecesarilly big to contain just two rows. Perharps in some situations there could be more rows? If not, I suggest to make it just two or three rows to better fit multiple windows on the screen. Resize doesn't help, because of the empty space between those two rows.

This is an interesting point.

As you know, the top part of the window shows your attacks and the bottom part shows the enemies' attacks. It is easy to bring on multiples of the latter. For example, if you are surrounded by wolves, you could suffer 16 attacks in one round. You can also end up with multiple player attacks, though it is much less common than in Angband (this was done partly to avoid message spam). There are 5 to 10 special abilities that let you have extra attacks in certain circumstances, and sometimes you can have a lot of attacks. For example, try experimenting with herbs of rage when you are facing multiple enemies.

All that said, I might be able to make the window automatically resize or something. Actually, just having your attacks, then a single empty row, then the enemy attacks is probably the best solution.

[ghengiz]

All that said, I might be able to make the window automatically resize or something. Actually, just having your attacks, then a single empty row, then the enemy attacks is probably the best solution.

but then this window could cover another one, or end below the lower part of the screen...
a fixed-size window with a scroll bar could be a better solution IMHO. of course the (fixed) size of the window should be user-defined.

[imsabbel]

This is fantastic!

I only played one quick game last night, but this "variant" has more innovation than anything else I have seen combined in the Angband world during the 5 years or so I was away (except maybe TOME4, but that is not really compareable due to the complete depature).

I love the sensible way stats are handled, for example. the old AD&D style 10 base to 18/xxx was such a stupid crutch that I wonder why not more people did away with it.

And the way to buy stats are abilities using experience is beautiful.


The only drawback is the reduced monster count. I personally like having 100s of different monsters and do a pokemon style "collect them all" in the monster memory, but that is just secondary.

EDIT: And i forgot: Experience for actually encountering new monsters is a fantastic concept, together with dimishing returns! It makes me actually look forward to find new and exciting baddies instead of mawing down another line of orcs....

[Narvius]

This is a great thing. It's really fun, and something really different.

I only have two problems with it. One if it being a bug; always center causes earthquakes, but that problem was mentioned before.
The other is... I really dislike the "time limit". But that's my problem.

I only got to, like, dlvl 5 so (out of 40, yes?) - does it slow down a bit later? Because at the beginning min depth goes up at roughly the same rate I explore levels.

[Scatha]

This is fantastic!

Glad you like it!

The only drawback is the reduced monster count. I personally like having 100s of different monsters and do a pokemon style "collect them all" in the monster memory, but that is just secondary.

EDIT: And i forgot: Experience for actually encountering new monsters is a fantastic concept, together with dimishing returns! It makes me actually look forward to find new and exciting baddies instead of mawing down another line of orcs....

As you have observed, the experience system (gaining and spending) is an important component of the game. Trying to keep things more of a flavourful fit, as half mentioned, is the main reason for the relatively low monster count, but I'll also point out that for the diminishing returns mechanic on experience to be meaningful, you need in a typical game to be meeting each type of enemy several to many times. Given our aim for the length of the game, this means that there shouldn't be too many monsters (but there is some flexibility here, and the number might increase a bit if we have good monster concepts).

I only got to, like, dlvl 5 so (out of 40, yes?) - does it slow down a bit later? Because at the beginning min depth goes up at roughly the same rate I explore levels.

There are 20 dungeon levels. The length of time allocated per level does go up as you get deeper -- it's 1000 + (depth in feet) turns. However, the levels also get bigger, so this may continue to be true. You can always dive early on in order to spend some more time at deeper levels.

We regard having a time limit as an important part of the game balance, to avoid conflicts between optimal play and enjoyable play, which you can get if there is a section where the optimal strategy is to spend a long time safely playing at a certain depth to gather experience and/or items. It also helps keep the length of the game under control. That said, the precise formula used to control the forced descent is a balancing tool, so we might consider changing this.

[Narvius]

Oh well. It's not that bothersome, actually, I just don't really like the thought of being eternally pushed forwards. (that also happens to be my main gripe with DC:SS; Food being really limited and stuff)
Also, should I ever get really pissed at it, I probably can patch it out myself. :3

Aaaaand, the combat/character system. It's pretty simple, powerful, makes for quick (dangerous!) combat and is straightforward to do by hand (with the obvious exception of virtual dice, but it's possible to come up with some different scheme for that - or just keep a laptop handy, though that kinda defeats the purpose of P&P), so I think I might rip it off for a P&P RPG, if you don't mind.

[ghengiz]

(with the obvious exception of virtual dice, but it's possible to come up with some different scheme for that - or just keep a laptop handy, though that kinda defeats the purpose of P&P)

real dice for example?

[Narvius]

Sil uses pretty much every single dice from 1 to 20 (possibly beyond) - try to roll a d9 or d7 ;P
1, 2 (half d4 or coin), 3 (half d6), 4, 5 (half d10), 6, 8, 10, 12, 20 can all be trivially done. But inbetween? :3

On-topic: Is there a dungeon map? I couldn't find it. And I could understand if there wasn't one, but still I prefer to ask.