Sil

[locus]

Can you elaborate?

Well, I don't want to get too heavy into other-roguelike politics, but there have been a lot of controversial changes to Crawl recently that have cut core gameplay mechanics in the name of streamlining (carry weight limits, item destruction, butchering corpses for food, etc). I come down on the "Crawl is ruined, thank God I can just play Sil instead" side of the controversy, so I really don't want to see Sil follow in Crawl's footsteps.

MarvinPA is one of the people on the Crawl devteam, which is why it's relevant. I'm not just taking this opportunity to whine as a non-sequitur.

[Infinitum]

They removed the incessant chunk-gobbling from Crawl? Good riddance.

[debo]

Hi http://angband.oook.cz/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6

I think the obvious next step for Sil to take is to turn it into Sil X Street Fighter

[Patashu]

Hi http://angband.oook.cz/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=6

I think the obvious next step for Sil to take is to turn it into Sil X Street Fighter

Is there really no roguelike based on Street Fighter yet? Given Metroid and Megaman and so on have been covered, this seems a large oversight.

[half]

They removed the incessant chunk-gobbling from Crawl? Good riddance.

Yes, the need to constantly hit some combination of keys to butcher and eat things was one of my worst memories of Crawl. Those major streamlining changes to Crawl sound interesting. I can see good reasons behind them, but am not sure whether it would feel right after them -- I'd need to play it to be sure. Perhaps forking it and seeing which one people preferred would have been a good way to do it.

[debo]

Perhaps forking it and seeing which one people preferred would have been a good way to do it.

This sort of already happens; when changes like this are being made, they generally go into a branch (or into trunk or something) and you can play those branches on webtiles with a single click. It's pretty great!

[Patashu]

Yes, the need to constantly hit some combination of keys to butcher and eat things was one of my worst memories of Crawl. Those major streamlining changes to Crawl sound interesting. I can see good reasons behind them, but am not sure whether it would feel right after them -- I'd need to play it to be sure. Perhaps forking it and seeing which one people preferred would have been a good way to do it.

Well, what makes Crawl Crawl is orc priests smiting you, fire giants fireballing you, titanic slime creatures destroying you in melee and elf annihilators crystal spearing you. Unless that changes, it'll always be good ol' DCSS~

[chadwarden]

Sorry, but what is wrong with this game? It appeared to me at first as one of the most brilliant roguelikes, but difficulty level is so high that it's impossible to advance beyond few floors or so. Maybe there is some perfect build, but what is the fun of having to optimize your character so hard instead of choosing strategies. So tell if I'm missing some proper way of playing this game or is harder than ADOM? I play Noldors, take some combat feats, few times tried some songs, nothing helps.

[debo]

You don't really need to optimize anything other than your gameplay to survive to 500'. Just put all your experience into melee and evasion evenly until you know what's going on, you don't even need to buy abilities at all if you're just learning.

Pick Noldor Feanor 2453 and just learn how to deal with the enemies on each new floor, as they are quite distinct.

If you are a Video Person, this series may also help you: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list...wHnb9TU8rY14TT

[taptap]

difficulty level is so high that it's impossible to advance beyond few floors or so. Maybe there is some perfect build, but what is the fun of having to optimize your character so hard instead of choosing strategies.

It certainly isn't an "only one strategy works". There are many different working strategies (look in the ladder for inspiration). If you engage the inhabitants of Angband (you don't even have to) be aware they are really different to each other.

When I started out I found the easiest way to see a bigger part of the dungeon rapidly was mainly stealth (w. disguise) / perception (w. listen) / song (w. lorien) - you can't have all of that right away but build towards it. (With some tweaks you can win the game with a char built around these. This is also, how Beren did it in the stories.) If you want to fight stuff a balanced stat distribution and investing mainly in melee and evasion and nothing much else works very well until 500ft. when different challenges start to show up, that are easier to encounter with some will and abilities.

As a rule: Don't take too many abilities right away, you can afford them better later in the game. Don't attempt to clean Angband of monsters, engage at your terms and run while you still can. And: debo's videos are good.

[chadwarden]

Thanks for great responses.

[Patashu]

Sorry, but what is wrong with this game? It appeared to me at first as one of the most brilliant roguelikes, but difficulty level is so high that it's impossible to advance beyond few floors or so. Maybe there is some perfect build, but what is the fun of having to optimize your character so hard instead of choosing strategies. So tell if I'm missing some proper way of playing this game or is harder than ADOM? I play Noldors, take some combat feats, few times tried some songs, nothing helps.

This isn't a 'kill all the dudes and emerge a mighty hero' roguelike like tome4 or nethack. You get 1/2 the experience from just seeing an enemy - and after killing something a lot it stops giving meaningful experience anymore - so there is a big emphasis on NOT fighting things unless it's in your best interests to. This is compounded by orcs appearing in huge packs with the ability to get lucky attacks if you let them attack you enough through the game (they roll crap for accuracy, but can do up to ~20 damage if an orc warrior). Plus, there is a hugely powerful stealth system, you can make enemies never even realize you existed.

My guess is that you are trying too hard to kill everything you see.

My advice is, 'Who said you had to kill everything?'

In addition, if it's not clear from above posts - skill points good. Abilities bad unless you need them to complete your strategy. Abilities get severely overpriced the more of them you have, while skill points make you better at everything and keep you up with the power curve.

[wobbly]

It took me a while to work out how to avoid dying to being mobbed. Enemies get large bonuses if they can surround you. Until you learn the AI sprinting can be a life saver. You could try a 2/5/4/3 feanor with armoursmithing & enchantment. You'll need to save 500xp for the forge at 100'. Build speed boots, helm of brillance & something else. Look for where your escape route is before fights & watch out for orcs circling round from behind. The above suggestions from others are also great.

[huiren]

I'm a major Crawl fan who tried this a year or so ago, really enjoyed it and got down to 900' feet or so a few times, but never further than that. What kept me from coming back for so long is the difficulty. Not only is the game very hard, it's very difficult to recognize your mistakes. Compared with Crawl, in which every death feels like a learning experience even now, I have a lot of trouble in Sil recognizing what I did wrong and how I could have avoided getting surrounded by orcs.

As a somewhat related question, I'm sure this is not a good character type for a beginner, but is it possible to build a warrior-singer, using both melee and song, type of character from the start? If so, what songs should I try to get? Elbereth and slaying?

In general, how much does this game favor specialization over generalization? I love playing generalist characters in games, who get by by having every trick in the book, even if each individual trick is not super strong. A lot of games really don't want you to do that, however. Can you do well with that kind of character in Sil?

Edit: I should mention I've watched quite a number of Debo's videos, greatly enjoyed them and sad there don't seem to be any new ones. I wouldn't have made it past 200' without them, I'm sure.

[taptap]

As a somewhat related question, I'm sure this is not a good character type for a beginner, but is it possible to build a warrior-singer, using both melee and song, type of character from the start?

Sure it is. I believe almost everything is a viable specialty in Sil, but each requires different play. If you have trouble with being surrounded you may want to try the fear effects (horn of terror, song of elbereth), slaying can be incredibly powerful when used well against concentrations of enemies - and if combined with multi-attack abilities/weapons/rage herbs, if you feel experimental you can take song of staying as well and go full out heavy armour in equipment and abilities. Just experiment a little.