Sil

[Arthandas]

Imo, this is completionism gone wild. Simply knowing that the dungeon is infinite in principle bothers you so much that you want to forbid it for everyone. I mean, nothing stops you from playing without upstairs already (it is even implemented as a conduct/challenge in game).

Firstly, how is asking for a variant forbidding it for anyone else? This could even be a cfg setting or something. Secondly, I think it would be better for the game overall. Thirdly, it's not implemented as a conduct/challenge, the game simply keeps track of it. If it was implemented like NetHack's conducts (which you choose before the game) there would be no problem and I would be happy.

Also, since Sil is pretty straightforward (no optional branches or quests), I think the no backtracking option would fit better than persistent floors. I think Sil should be played Ironman mode by default.

[LostTemplar]

Easy way out: Play no upstairs until throne room, then the floors are persistent for all practical purposes.

This is a great misunderstanding. Persistent floors are completely different from "visiting floor once (ironman)" style. If you have persistent floors you can stash equipment, loot vaults later, kill uniques later, You can dive past danger without loosing stuff (e.g. forge) etc.

Ironman somehow satisfy all the limits but it is a great challenge.

[taptap]

I still prefer how it's done in DC:SS. You have the same objective: go down, take something and escape. The floors are persistent and if you played it, you know how important resources are. I don't have the same feeling of urgency or importance of resources in Sil.

I think the best solution would be to prohibit backtracking. As soon as you go down, the staircase disappears. Because what's even the reason the main hero would go back up? There's no time for backtracking and it's unsafe. It would be easier to implement than persistent floors. You could make it optional, like conducts in NetHack.

As for the point made by Derakon where you'll get into unwinnable situations. I don't see how random floors improve this. This is a roguelike, and like all roguelikes it's controlled by RNG which sometimes can just fuck you up. Whether you're a master or not, you can't expect to win 100% or always avoid dangers.

All in all, it's just how I experience this game. If you as the author think that random floors and backtracking improve the gameplay then stick to it. It's not like you have to change the game to my taste.

Imo, this is completionism gone wild. Simply knowing that the dungeon is infinite in principle bothers you so much that you want to forbid it for everyone. I mean, nothing stops you from playing without upstairs already (it is even implemented as a conduct/challenge in game).

[Thraalbee]

... I think the best solution would be to prohibit backtracking. As soon as you go down, the staircase disappears. ...

That would be a huge change. Very bad in my opinion. Sil has [almost] no escapes like Angband and it's variants, except stairs. Not ever having a known staircase on new levels would slow down diving significantly. Or increase the failure rate. Falling though a false floor every now and then is scary enough.

[Arthandas]

I still prefer how it's done in DC:SS. You have the same objective: go down, take something and escape. The floors are persistent and if you played it, you know how important resources are. I don't have the same feeling of urgency or importance of resources in Sil.

I think the best solution would be to prohibit backtracking. As soon as you go down, the staircase disappears. Because what's even the reason the main hero would go back up? There's no time for backtracking and it's unsafe. It would be easier to implement than persistent floors. You could make it optional, like conducts in NetHack.

As for the point made by Derakon where you'll get into unwinnable situations. I don't see how random floors improve this. This is a roguelike, and like all roguelikes it's controlled by RNG which sometimes can just fuck you up. Whether you're a master or not, you can't expect to win 100% or always avoid dangers.

All in all, it's just how I experience this game. If you as the author think that random floors and backtracking improve the gameplay then stick to it. It's not like you have to change the game to my taste.

[Scatha]

1. It's logical that floors doesn't shift when you leave them. It also breaks immersion.

This is obviously an abstraction. The idea is not that the floor at the top of the staircase literally shifts, but that Angband is such a maze that you can't find your way back to where you were before.

2. You can't make a stack, and all items left on the floor are lost.

Aside from balance issues, I also think that this is worse for immersion. The idea that you can safely leave items on the ground in Angband, travel to a completely different part of the dungeon, and return for them is pretty odd.

3. Why go deeper - to a more dangerous floor if you can go up and grind some easy exp? This encourages grinding.

As Derakon pointed out, we have other mechanisms in place to push against grinding. Applies to point 5 too. Go on, try to break it!

4. No satisfaction of clearing the floor of enemies.

Again, it's a problem with the flavour if you can wipe out every single monster in Angband.

6. Traversing Angband should be a big commitment, instead you can run across all floors up and down like it was your own house. I would even opt for no possibility of going backwards.

There is a challenge option for this, which the game records. But I don't think travelling is so easy (and I'm not sure how it would be made harder by persistent floors?).

[Derakon]

1. It's logical that floors doesn't shift when you leave them. It also breaks immersion.

Can't really argue this one, but contrariwise, with permanent floors, if you get into a really unwinnable situation (e.g. stairs are surrounded by nasty monsters), there's basically nothing you can do. In my opinion, games should never leave you saying "Well, this character can no longer win." They should just kill the character instead.

2. You can't make a stack, and all items left on the floor are lost.

Yep. Inventory pressure is one of the primary balancing factors of Angband, and Sil inherits this to some extent. Being able to carry all the stuff you'd ever want would be bad for game balance.

3. Why go deeper - to a more dangerous floor if you can go up and grind some easy exp? This encourages grinding.

Better stuff shows up deeper, and you can't grind indefinitely because of the turn clock.

4. No satisfaction of clearing the floor of enemies.

??? Monsters spawn all the time anyway, so you can't clear floors to begin with.

5. Discourages exploring and item conservation. With persistent floors you don't have infinite resources. This encourages smart usage of potions and other useable items and rewards exploration.

You don't have infinite resources anyway because of the turn clock.

6. Traversing Angband should be a big commitment, instead you can run across all floors up and down like it was your own house. I would even opt for no possibility of going backwards.

Let me know once you make it to 950' by taking the first staircase you see with each character. Traversing Angband is not trivial.

[Arthandas]

@Scatha

1. It's logical that floors doesn't shift when you leave them. It also breaks immersion.
2. You can't make a stack, and all items left on the floor are lost.
3. Why go deeper - to a more dangerous floor if you can go up and grind some easy exp? This encourages grinding.
4. No satisfaction of clearing the floor of enemies.
5. Discourages exploring and item conservation. With persistent floors you don't have infinite resources. This encourages smart usage of potions and other useable items and rewards exploration.
6. Traversing Angband should be a big commitment, instead you can run across all floors up and down like it was your own house. I would even opt for no possibility of going backwards.

@taptap
That's exactly what I'm doing right now. I just wish that would be a part of the gameplay instead of self imposed challenge.

[taptap]

Could you please make a variant with persistent floors? I cannot enjoy this game otherwise.

Easy way out: Play no upstairs until throne room, then the floors are persistent for all practical purposes.

[Scatha]

Could you please make a variant with persistent floors? I cannot enjoy this game otherwise.

Can you explain what it is that you don't enjoy about the current behaviour? While it wouldn't be entirely impossible to build a version with persistent floors, a lot of the game balance is built upon the current behaviour, so it would be a major undertaking (and not something we're likely to consider without understanding the need).

[Arthandas]

Could you please make a variant with persistent floors? I cannot enjoy this game otherwise.

[T-Mick]

Suggestion: successfully kicking down a door should count as moving in the direction of the door for purposes of Charge.

At first, I thought, "Surely, kicking a door down would end with one's foot firmly planted on the ground, and the door lying cleanly below."

Then, I watched http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ4OPBVGLVg, and if that isn't a charge, then I don't know what is.

[locus]

Suggestion: successfully kicking down a door should count as moving in the direction of the door for purposes of Charge.

[Scatha]

taptap: It's ugly, but if you desperately want to play on your mac I seem to remember a workaround to the old bug that someone mentioned was that they could successfully run the windows version under Wine.

[HallucinationMushroom]

I look forward to your coffee table book, "Patashu's Secret Techs: Enriching Your Life through the Wisdom of Roguelikes."

Or, better yet, "Secret Tech: The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Roguelike Players."