Roadmap for angband

[getter77]

What about soliciting for people whom the goal is to play through the various variants and full blown offshoots(Portralis post and just-pre massive rewrite, ToME stuff, Peleron's Brilliant Rebirth, etc) as a means to discover nifty ideas and implementations that are already out there but have perhaps gone forgotten/lost the spotlight for the betterment of Angband at the core? Some "Research" folks as it were aiming to enjoy/audit as they go....perhaps in the form of a contest or some such?

I don't necessarily see the Angband woes as a case of too many chefs in the kitchen so much as perhaps it being past time to take stock of the ingredients on hand and ransack the cupboards and adjoining rooms as some of the forgotten and "old" stuff still stands to be good to further enrich the stock after reducing them down.

[Shockbolt]

Hmmm. Are you sure about that? Today I learned that the richest 400 individuals in the USA have the same net worth as the poorest 125 ... million. I'd say that's pretty wrong, and that's largely the result of functional companies having a top boss -> floor guy structure.

[exits pinko commie digression, back on topic]

Like I said earlier, I argued in favour of a new maintainer - but since nobody wanted to do it, I was happy to try the consensus approach. We don't seem to have any wildly differing visions so far.

I'm also ending this "discussion" on my end here, I'm not really sure why I even started it, must have been a pinch of frustration or something

[Magnate]

ok, so you're the example that proves me wrong But what if each member of that group has his/her's own ideas and visions for Angband, can you picture the struggle in every direction?
I still say, "millions" of functional companies out there can't be wrong, using a top boss -> floor guy structure to get things done?

Hmmm. Are you sure about that? Today I learned that the richest 400 individuals in the USA have the same net worth as the poorest 125 ... million. I'd say that's pretty wrong, and that's largely the result of functional companies having a top boss -> floor guy structure.

[exits pinko commie digression, back on topic]

Like I said earlier, I argued in favour of a new maintainer - but since nobody wanted to do it, I was happy to try the consensus approach. We don't seem to have any wildly differing visions so far.

[Shockbolt]

I totally disagree with you! I've been involved in plenty of things where there haven't been bosses, where people can work to do something together on equal footing, where the group decides together what they're going to do. There have been leaders, but it's not the same - the leader is only the leader because people agree with them and they inspire, not because they are already in a position of authority and must be obeyed. Anyway, I should probably bugger off now...

ok, so you're the example that proves me wrong But what if each member of that group has his/her's own ideas and visions for Angband, can you picture the struggle in every direction?
I still say, "millions" of functional companies out there can't be wrong, using a top boss -> floor guy structure to get things done?

[takkaria]

Think of the maintainer as a sort of boss. Every company or team needs a boss, nomatter how great each employee or team member is. The boss/maintainer is there to guide and decide. If you go outside the idea of having a boss, the Angband game/project will sooner than later end in alot of discussions and arguments that steal time instead of contribute to the game, and most likely you'll end up having more people breaking off and making variants.

I totally disagree with you! I've been involved in plenty of things where there haven't been bosses, where people can work to do something together on equal footing, where the group decides together what they're going to do. There have been leaders, but it's not the same - the leader is only the leader because people agree with them and they inspire, not because they are already in a position of authority and must be obeyed. Anyway, I should probably bugger off now...

[Shockbolt]

Think of the maintainer as a sort of boss. Every company or team needs a boss, nomatter how great each employee or team member is. The boss/maintainer is there to guide and decide. If you go outside the idea of having a boss, the Angband game/project will sooner than later end in alot of discussions and arguments that steal time instead of contribute to the game, and most likely you'll end up having more people breaking off and making variants.

[Max Stats]

I think it's a bit silly to have a maintainer that can't code. Sure there's a dev team now, but will there always be, and should a maintainer be held hostage to the the dev teams compliance. Keep walking down this road and we'll end up with Angband by committee... not good.

Followed by "Occupy Angband" protesters, of course.

[Timo Pietilä]

Keep walking down this road and we'll end up with Angband by committee... not good.

Isn't it already that? There is no maintainer, coder or otherwise, there is only team of coders.

[Malak Darkhunter]

it'll become the angband democracy

[buzzkill]

I think it's a bit silly to have a maintainer that can't code. Sure there's a dev team now, but will there always be, and should a maintainer be held hostage to the the dev teams compliance. Keep walking down this road and we'll end up with Angband by committee... not good.

[Timo Pietilä]

Don't you think that everyone who works on the game for free also plays the game as well? You seem to think that they do it just because they like coding and have no interest in the actual game itself.

That is not what I'm saying. Just that coding experience does not weight much in the choosing who should be the maintainer if there is someone to take that role. If the player also is experienced coder all the better, but that is not necessity. Other way around is. You can't be a maintainer if you have no idea what kind of problems current gameplay has and what needs to be fixed and improved.

Obviously maintainer needs to contribute himself as well but there are more ways to contribute than just coding.

[Magnate]

It was serious comment. Currently there is dev-team, which means that whoever would be the maintainer does not need to know how to code. He just needs to choose what goes in the game and assign tasks in to do -list for code.

What he needs is to play the game, know what makes it tick (the rules of the game) and how it could be improved IN PLAYER POINT OF VIEW.

Well, there hasn't been a rush of volunteers since you floated the idea. But if anyone is thinking that they might be interested in such a role, please say so. I would welcome someone willing to take over the content management side of the game: creating a vision for the next version, setting out priorities, and being the spokesperson and decision-maker accountable to the community here. Obviously s/he would have to deal with the fact that no developer can be told what to do by when, but I think s/he would find us all willing to be quite frank about what we wanted to work on and when it might get done.

I can't speak for the rest of the devteam, but I think everyone would at least be willing to discuss the idea with whoever wanted to step up.

But note that it's not really possible to do this role without any understanding of the code at all. If you want to be able to prioritise and plan changes for the game, you have to be able to understand what the alternative solutions are, how much coding work they would each involve, and what other aspects of the game they are connected to.

To give a recent example: there was a consensus that it would be helpful if 'I'nspecting attack devices told you the expected damage *after* adjusting for your device skill. Fizzix spent some time coding up a short-term solution which involved quite extensive surgery to the effects code. I've now spent tens of hours designing a complete rewrite of the effects code, which will solve this problem along with others - but I have no ETA for this. So if you can't code, you still need to be able to discuss and manage these kinds of issues.

[TJS]

It was serious comment. Currently there is dev-team, which means that whoever would be the maintainer does not need to know how to code. He just needs to choose what goes in the game and assign tasks in to do -list for code.

What he needs is to play the game, know what makes it tick (the rules of the game) and how it could be improved IN PLAYER POINT OF VIEW.

It is the gameplay that needs to be improved and maintained, not coding standards, source management or even source code that is used. Those are just tools to keep maintaining gameplay easy.

In my opinion no matter how good coder you are you have no business changing any aspect in gameplay unless you are also a player.

Don't you think that everyone who works on the game for free also plays the game as well? You seem to think that they do it just because they like coding and have no interest in the actual game itself. Or perhaps you think that anyone who can program can't possibly also have a good understanding of gameplay as well?

I guess you'd volunteer yourself for the difficult task of telling everyone else what changes you want, whilst not doing any of the actual work yourself.

On another note I'd like to say thanks for the devteams hardwork and the game is definitely improving, which you can see from the poll of which version is best.

[Timo Pietilä]

I think Timo's post should be taken as an expression of frustration rather than a plausible course of action.

It was serious comment. Currently there is dev-team, which means that whoever would be the maintainer does not need to know how to code. He just needs to choose what goes in the game and assign tasks in to do -list for code.

What he needs is to play the game, know what makes it tick (the rules of the game) and how it could be improved IN PLAYER POINT OF VIEW.

It is the gameplay that needs to be improved and maintained, not coding standards, source management or even source code that is used. Those are just tools to keep maintaining gameplay easy.

In my opinion no matter how good coder you are you have no business changing any aspect in gameplay unless you are also a player.

Also, he does contribute (see e.g. traps thread, I believe he also recently did a big revamp of the artifacts file).

My most visible (accepted) changes have been some balance tweaks in edit-files and current monster coloring. Tiny bit of bug-hunting.

[Nick]

I think Timo's post should be taken as an expression of frustration rather than a plausible course of action.

OK, but it's a bit too recurrent a theme for my liking.

Also, he does contribute (see e.g. traps thread, I believe he also recently did a big revamp of the artifacts file).

Quite right! My advice was so awesome he took it before I even gave it