Breath damage dividers (spoilers included)

[fizzix]

Currently breath damage is calculated by dividing the monster HP by a divider and then multiplying by a resistance. The results are summarized in the table below:

Breath type    Divider   Max     Resist
-------------------------------------
Acid           3         1600    1/6 (1/18) assuming armor 
Elec           3         1600    1/3 (1/9)
Fire           3         1600    1/3 (1/9) 
Cold           3         1600    1/3 (1/9)
Pois           3         800     1/3 (1/9)
Neth           6         550     1/6 - 5/6
Light          6         400     1/6 - 3/6
Dark           6         400     1/6 - 3/6
Sound          6         500     1/6 - 5/6
Chaos          6         500     1/6 - 5/6
Disenchant     6         500     1/6 - 5/6
Nexus          6         400     1/6 - 5/6
Time           3         150     none
Inertia        6         200     none
Gravity        3         200     none
Shards         6         500     1/6 - 5/6
Plasma         6         150     none
Force          6         200     none

There's something fishy here. All high elements have a divisor of 6, except for gravity and time. Furthermore, these are arguably the breaths with the most damaging side effect! I recommend changing the divisors for gravity and time to be 6 each. I'd also raise the max damage from plasma to 300.

This would produce the following changes.
Time hounds would average 55 per breath instead of 110.
Time vortices would average 30 per breath instead of 60.

This brings them in line with damage from the equi-potent hounds. (hounds with the same, HP, level and EXP). For Time hounds, these are plasma and nether hounds
(also is there any reason why time hounds move at +20 speed while the equi-potent hounds only move at +10?)

Gravity hounds would average 32 per breath instead of 64.
This brings them to the same level of damage as the equi-potent Inertia hounds and Impact hounds.

Monsters that would see a damage increase to plasma breath are:
Phoenix (150 -> 300)
Uriel (150 -> 300)
Aether hounds (150 -> 205)
Greater Balrog (150 -> 300)
Lungorthin (150 -> 300)
Gothmog (150 -> 300)

[d_m]

There's something fishy here. All high elements have a divisor of 6, except for gravity and time. Furthermore, these are arguably the breaths with the most damaging side effect! I recommend changing the divisors for gravity and time to be 6 each. I'd also raise the max damage from plasma to 300.

We can playtest this after 3.3 but on the surface I'm opposed to this change. If there is a balance problem I'd prefer to make the other hounds harder, rather than taking two of the hardest types and making them easier.

We can easily make the change to plasma max damage (which seems fine) without making the gravity/time changes.

If we do want to bring Time/Gravity hounds in line with Nether/Plasma hounds, we can do it by making the latter harder rather than the former easier. If not, then I don't see the need for a change.

Right now I am focused on smoothing the difficulty curve but making the game harder, not easier.

[Derakon]

Furthermore, if you're worried about the damage from Time Hounds, you've already made a serious mistake.

[fizzix]

We can playtest this after 3.3 but on the surface I'm opposed to this change. If there is a balance problem I'd prefer to make the other hounds harder, rather than taking two of the hardest types and making them easier.

This is certainly for after 3.3

Can I bargain for adding difficulty in other areas in exchange for bringing gravity/time breaths to the same (lower) standards as the others?

Furthermore, if you're worried about the damage from Time Hounds, you've already made a serious mistake.

That's the point. The side-effects are already so strong, there's really no reason to add absolutely punishing and unresistable damage on top of it.

[jens]

I like the symmetry of all higher breaths using a divisor of 6. In fact I have long assumed this to be the case. In order to lessen the need to check spoilers I support increasing the divisor for time and gravity. We can always do other changes at the same time to keep the monsters affected at the current level of danger.

[Derakon]

This is certainly for after 3.3That's the point. The side-effects are already so strong, there's really no reason to add absolutely punishing and unresistable damage on top of it.

What's wrong with having an attack with strong damage in addition to strong side effects? I don't have a problem with there existing an absolutely horrible attack -- it's rare, so you just learn, very quickly, to avoid it.

I mean, what problem are we trying to solve here? I get the inconsistency of divisors, but game balance-wise is there any actual issue here?

[fizzix]

I mean, what problem are we trying to solve here? I get the inconsistency of divisors, but game balance-wise is there any actual issue here?

The problem is that Time hounds are much more dangerous than the hounds of similar level. They move faster, have a deadlier attack, and breathe for more damage. Gravity hounds are similarly ill-placed.

Let's look at it from another perspective. Assume that all the divisors for higher breaths were 6 to begin with. Is there a good argument for lowering Time and Gravity to 3?

[Derakon]

Let's look at it from another perspective. Assume that all the divisors for higher breaths were 6 to begin with. Is there a good argument for lowering Time and Gravity to 3?

Sure. They aren't deadly enough; such a change makes them more deadly.

The way I see this, you're trying to nerf two of the best monsters in the game. These are the guys that terrorize everyone. That's great! They shouldn't be made weaker!

As I said, I grant that there's an inconsistency in the divisors. That's moderately icky. I don't think it's anywhere near bad enough to warrant weakening attacks that are used by only, what, four monsters in the game? Five?

[fizzix]

Sure. They aren't deadly enough; such a change makes them more deadly.

The way I see this, you're trying to nerf two of the best monsters in the game. These are the guys that terrorize everyone. That's great! They shouldn't be made weaker!

Ok, then at the very least, double their XP gain. It's not my preferred approach, but, at least it allows for a justification for the additional difficulty.

[jens]

As I said, I grant that there's an inconsistency in the divisors. That's moderately icky. I don't think it's anywhere near bad enough to warrant weakening attacks that are used by only, what, four monsters in the game? Five?

Each (Gravity/Time) are used by 4 monsters:
Gravity: Gravity hound, Kavlax, Aether vortex, Aether hound
Time: Time vortex, Time hound, Aether vortex, Aether hound

Kavlax and Aether won't really notice the change since they have so many breaths. Time vortex is not really a problem damage wise today. So I'd say we are talking about two monsters. Why not just inrcease their hp with something like 50%, then the change to 1/6 hp breaths won't really nerf them.

[fizzix]

Each (Gravity/Time) are used by 4 monsters:
Gravity: Gravity hound, Kavlax, Aether vortex, Aether hound
Time: Time vortex, Time hound, Aether vortex, Aether hound

Kavlax and Aether won't really notice the change since they have so many breaths. Time vortex is not really a problem damage wise today. So I'd say we are talking about two monsters. Why not just inrcease their hp with something like 50%, then the change to 1/6 hp breaths won't really nerf them.

We could make time hounds equi-potent to ethereal hounds.

They'd then have 480 HP (up from 330) and be native to dlevel 59 (instead of 51). With a 6 time divisor they'd do 80 per breath instead of the current 110 with divisor of 3. Ethereal hounds still move slower than time hounds, but they have pass wall so that's reasonably consistent. They're still murderous, but at least they're murderous in a consistent manner.

Similarly we can bump gravity hounds up to the next tier, and be equi-potent to multi-hued hounds They'd have HP of 220 (instead of 193) and native to dlevel 43 instead of 35. Or you can bump them up to the plasma, nether hound tier and give them 330 HP and make them native to dlevel 51.