3.3 RC: squelch/ignore functionality + lvl feelings

[bulian]

I played a few hours on the nightlies today and found a couple bugs:

- What happened to the destroy command 'k'? It has been replaced by "ignore" which has seemingly weird functionality. I accidentally hit the "ignore all" on some !CSW I had while trying to destroy something on the ground. The !CSW started acting as if squelched unless in "unignore mode" - going back to regular mode causes them to disappear from inventory, though they are not toggled under the squelch menu or the "autoinscription menu" as being squelched. If "ignore" has the same functionality as squelch they should be linked to the submenu. To undo this I had to go into unignore mode ('shift + k') and 'destroy' the stack again ('k'). What was wrong with destroy? Does "ignore" on an unidentified artifact cause the artifact to remain visible? It seems to have no effect on identified artifacts. Personally not a fan of this change.

- Level feelings on the nightlies are not dependent on number of steps taken before changing levels. e.g. No "looks like any other level" messages or penalty to divers or stair scummers.

- Got the crash bug as well after killing something. Forget what though. Already had the phial if that helps.

[Netbrian]

Level feelings on the nightlies are not dependent on number of steps taken before changing levels. e.g. No "looks like any other level" messages or penalty to divers or stair scummers..

I'm a fan of the small chance of having the stairway collapse behind you when going up as the solution to this problem, rather than putting the delay back in.

They probably shouldn't collapse in the town though.

[Napsterbater]

I'm a fan of the small chance of having the stairway collapse behind you when going up as the solution to this problem, rather than putting the delay back in.

Just play with disconnected stairs if you want this. I think playing with them connected is pretty much exploitative.

[jens]

- Level feelings on the nightlies are not dependent on number of steps taken before changing levels. e.g. No "looks like any other level" messages or penalty to divers or stair scummers.

It's been this way for a while now, I mentioned it maybe a month ago or so when they were first changed. Then I realised that they needed a lot of testing, so I played a bunch of games where I did a lot of stairscumming just to see the variation in the feelings. They have now been adjusted 3 times since then, but I've not reported it since, because I still think they need extra supervision ;-) But I do hope the plan is to act against stair scumming.

[Nomad]

I know it's open to abuse, but I actually like the lack of delay; it encourages me to dive through boring levels quickly if I find a set of stairs right away, instead of hanging around for artificial reasons.

I'd like it if, rather than working by how long you stay, the game could somehow distinguish between taking stairs to a new level vs going back on yourself. Three possible suggestions:

1. Store the coordinates of the staircase where the player first entered the level. If they exit in the same place, no level feeling.

2. Track whether the player entered by an up or down staircase. If the next staircase they take is going in the same direction, give them a level feeling; if they reverse directions, no feeling.

3. The simplest and cruelest method: only give level feelings when the player descends to a new maximum depth. (Depending on how cruel you're willing to be, you could always fudge in an exception for returning to max depth via Word of Recall.)

[jens]

I know it's open to abuse, but I actually like the lack of delay; it encourages me to dive through boring levels quickly if I find a set of stairs right away, instead of hanging around for artificial reasons.

I'd like it if, rather than working by how long you stay, the game could somehow distinguish between taking stairs to a new level vs going back on yourself. Three possible suggestions:

1. Store the coordinates of the staircase where the player first entered the level. If they exit in the same place, no level feeling.

2. Track whether the player entered by an up or down staircase. If the next staircase they take is going in the same direction, give them a level feeling; if they reverse directions, no feeling.

3. The simplest and cruelest method: only give level feelings when the player descends to a new maximum depth. (Depending on how cruel you're willing to be, you could always fudge in an exception for returning to max depth via Word of Recall.)

I like this suggestion. It always bugged me when diving or something and went quickly on to the next level and not getting a feeling.

I like 1) the best. I'd like to make one modification though: if you take the same stair you only get a feeling if you have been on the level for 1000 turns. Actually what I want is to ensure that if I have explored quite a bit of the current level and now I want to move on, but I haven't found a down stair, or I'm not ready to go down, and I happen to go up by my old stair I should not be penalised.

[Jazerus]

Just play with disconnected stairs if you want this. I think playing with them connected is pretty much exploitative.

Er, yes, if you stairscum it's exploitative. If you don't, then it's not, and branding everyone who plays with connected stairs (most Angband players) as an exploiter is a little extreme and rude. Connected stairs have logical benefits other than scumming - descending into a level, immediately seeing Kavlax, and scampering back up, for example. I don't see how that's exploitative, but you lose that with disconnected stairs.

[Magnate]

I like this suggestion. It always bugged me when diving or something and went quickly on to the next level and not getting a feeling.

I like 1) the best. I'd like to make one modification though: if you take the same stair you only get a feeling if you have been on the level for 1000 turns. Actually what I want is to ensure that if I have explored quite a bit of the current level and now I want to move on, but I haven't found a down stair, or I'm not ready to go down, and I happen to go up by my old stair I should not be penalised.

We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. Take a look at NPP's source code - there is a work of genius implemented there, involving randomly-distributed special tiles - a level feeling is triggered after @ walks over a certain number of these. No mixing, no messing - a truly random delay which is unavoidable by any form of scumming.

[Max Stats]

We don't need to reinvent the wheel here. Take a look at NPP's source code - there is a work of genius implemented there, involving randomly-distributed special tiles - a level feeling is triggered after @ walks over a certain number of these. No mixing, no messing - a truly random delay which is unavoidable by any form of scumming.

Can I assume that rooms are treated collectively as a single tile? So you don't have to walk all over a whole room to make sure you hit the right spot?

Caverns could be a problem, unless tiles are several squares in diameter, otherwise you could easily walk around a lot but unknowingly walk around the special tiles.

[Derakon]

It's a stochastic process: a large number of random tiles are chosen, and only a comparatively small number need to be stepped on to enable the next level feeling. The game isn't trying to directly measure how much of the level you explored; it's using an analogue that comes close.

You could probably game the system by thoroughly "exploring" a small portion of the level to hit all of the chosen tiles in that region, but why bother?

[Napsterbater]

Er, yes, if you stairscum it's exploitative. If you don't, then it's not, and branding everyone who plays with connected stairs (most Angband players) as an exploiter is a little extreme and rude. Connected stairs have logical benefits other than scumming - descending into a level, immediately seeing Kavlax, and scampering back up, for example. I don't see how that's exploitative, but you lose that with disconnected stairs.

I think if you go down stairs and end up in a pack of hounds or next to Kavlax or whatever, you should rely on the stack of escapes you already have rather than getting a free "Create Stairs" cast every time you go up or down a staircase.

It only took so many times where I'd go down stairs, see bunch of monsters, go back up stairs, see a bunch of monsters, go back down stairs, to realize I was being a scaredy cat and to actually evaluate the survivability of each situation and to know what escapes I had and their utility and all of that. Playing connected is a crutch.

[bulian]

Let's not let this thread turn into another debate about the merits of connected stairs. Plenty of those already exits.

[Derakon]

So is it also a crutch to play variants that explicitly try to start the player out in a cul-de-sac without any monsters nearby?

Mobility and knowledge are big parts of survival in Angband, and starting out a new level with zero knowledge (beyond what you can see in LOS) and zero non-random mobility is inherently, deeply dangerous. Should the player be required to roll the dice each time they take a staircase?

[Napsterbater]

So is it also a crutch to play variants that explicitly try to start the player out in a cul-de-sac without any monsters nearby?

Mobility and knowledge are big parts of survival in Angband, and starting out a new level with zero knowledge (beyond what you can see in LOS) and zero non-random mobility is inherently, deeply dangerous. Should the player be required to roll the dice each time they take a staircase?

One of my last deaths was due to out-of-sight nexus hounds after I'd used a tlev to escape. Hit one button and I'm looking at the death screen. So I know what you mean. But the dungeon is dangerous and I wouldn't want it any other way. I play fine with rolling the dice, I know Eddie does, too, because it was his advice I took when I turned it off.

If off-screen breathers is what you're worried about, playing connected isn't going to help, there, either. The first thing you're doing is detecting, right? Either you're going to die next turn or you aren't, and if you are, you're playing too dangerously and connected won't help anyway, and if you aren't, you've got all the time in the world to detect and escape if you need to.

[buzzkill]

Playing with dis-connected stairs will make you a better player. Regardless of how you view it, it's one less crutch, and that will make you stronger in the long run. Really, with the excessive number of staircases on any given level, I mean they're not that hard to find (except in Fay), switching to disconnected stairs is hardly a change at all... unless you really need the crutch.

That NPP stuff* is genius. I wish I'd thought of it. It needs more wide spread application, and not just in the prevention of scumming (as I envision it). I always thought that you should be given some sort of minor award for exploration. If nothing else it would interesting to see what % of each level is explored, at least I think it would be.

NPP Stuff* : Take a look at NPP's source code - there is a work of genius implemented there, involving randomly-distributed special tiles - a level feeling is triggered after @ walks over a certain number of these. No mixing, no messing - a truly random delay which is unavoidable by any form of scumming.

Edited for clarity.