Stat zaps

[Spacebux]

Part of the game that made it challenging was being able to mitigate zaps in ones character's abilities. The current nightly code that allows a character to suddenly restore zapped stats at level-up, I feel, is far too generous.

No need to worry about looking for mushrooms of vigor (which, I feel are even a bit too powerful - I would like to see them restore 1 or 2 random stats at most); restore Str/Int/Wis/Dex/Con potions are practically squelchable; and stat-draining mobs are not much of a threat any more.

If this is the way the vanilla coders intend to take the game, would it be too much to ask for another "option" to disable the stat-restore-on-leveling?

Another consideration if you want to diminish the effect of stat-draining - put a timer on zaps - say 2,000 to 5,000 turns per hit? Or leave stat-draining as it was, and allow a slightly greater percentage of low-level armor to be "Sustain Stat" type ego-class that could be found at depths of 500' downward? Or get rid of the bloody "time" attack.

I don't think you needed to do anything more with the stat-zapping issue... didn't seem broken to me, i.e., no need to fix it.

--Spacebux--

[Taha]

Those potions - restore Str/Int/Wis/Dex/Con - don't exist any more. Mushrooms of vigor are nice, but not terribly common past the early levels. So save some.

This reduces the dramatic impact of stat draining early, when levels come easily, mushrooms are common, and money is scarce, and increases it in the midgame with longer levels, more heavy duty drainers (Dreads!) and no way to spend money to fix your problem. The new setup definitely has reduced store scumming and necessary trips to town, which I think was the goal.
________
Foxypoison69

[fizzix]

I used to be a proponent of the timed-stat drain, but cogent arguments convinced me it was a bad idea. If you get drained then all you need to do is go to the town and wait until your stat comes back. This is a problem, because there's no penalty to waiting around in town unless you're playing for low turncount. Therefore, stat draining has a readily available but tedious fix, which is more annoying than fun.

This was the same reason why stat gain was changed. In the old version, you could scum the town until the proper stat restore potion showed up. Enough people thought that was bad gameplay to warrant the change. Stat restore on level-up is in the testing phase, if enough people hate it, it will probably go away. However, so far, most responses have been positive.

As far as generosity is concerned. Restore on level up is very generous in the early game when level gain is easy but less generous after dlevel 30 where there is significant adventuring to be done between levels. At the endgame it's more punitive, and late game stat-drainers can actually be a big pain.

[d_m]

I agree with Fizzix--my experience is that I don't worry about stat gain until mid-to-late game, but then I actually worry about it more, and probably value sustains more than I previously did.

[Derakon]

The way I see it, this has made stat drain worse, not better. Oh, sure, early on it's not as much of a threat, since each level is within spitting distance of the last one. But I'm much more leery of e.g. Dreads now than I used to be, because it's pretty much guaranteed that I'll lose a few points of STR to them if I try to melee them, and those points won't be coming back until much later unless I get a lucky potion drop.

In other words, in the mid- and late-game, whether or not a monster drains stats has become a far more significant factor in my decision on whether or not to fight it. It used to be that I didn't really care one way or another, since any stats that got drained would be back to normal next time I was in town. Now if I get drained I'm stuck with it for an indeterminate amount of time.

In any case I don't see this being something that will be made optional.

EDIT: holy cow, rapid-fire pile-on! No hard feelings, Spacebux.

[buzzkill]

Maybe nobody's complaining about it because those likely to complain about the current state of V, have pretty much given up on V. I'll still throw my hat in the ring every once in a while, but I don't really care what happens to V anymore. It's in the hands of competent maintainers and I suppose that's good enough for me. There are still plenty of things happening that I disagree with, but more often than not I remain silent, because I just don't care that much about what happens to V.

Having not actually played it, I'm with Spacebux. IMO The 'proper' fix would have been to 'fix' town scumming, which for some strange reason seems untenable.

[Derakon]

This change has almost entirely eliminated townscumming from my game -- the only remaining reason I scum is when the stores have failed to stock Word of Recall and I've forgotten about the buyout mechanic. That's a rare occurrence indeed. And that elimination was done without changing how the stores work, thereby avoiding the very much larger argument over how to change stores to eliminate townscumming. I guarantee that if the stores had been modified then you'd see way more threads complaining about how stores weren't broken so why were they changed?

In other words, this is a no-win situation. The old system was broken in that it encouraged townscumming whenever your stats were drained. If you have a solution that fixes that problem without making someone unhappy, then you're either very skilled or an excellent liar, because there are diametrically-opposed viewpoints all over the place when it comes to Angband development.

It's a shame you don't care about V any more. The maintainers definitely do listen to feedback from users. They won't always do what you want them to do, of course, but it's quite literally impossible to keep everyone happy about every aspect of the game.

[will_asher]

I was kindof turned off when I heard about this change, but I'd play it a bit before saying it's a bad idea. In fact, the more I think about it, the more I think I will try it.

I don't usually say much in these debates either, because I also don't really care what happens to V. It certainly isn't because I think the current devteam are doing a bad job -it sounds like they're doing a great job. It's just when I've learned to customise the game to the way I like it in my own variant, I don't have any inclination to play V anymore. Just a matter of taste & the impossibility of pleasing everyone: With my own variant, there's no reason to compromise with the tastes or opinions of anyone else. I make it just how I like it.

[Philip]

I kind of like the change, mostly because I hate townscumming, and I think of level-up restores as the lesser of two evils.

[Spacebux]

I kind of like the change, mostly because I hate townscumming, and I think of level-up restores as the lesser of two evils.

No hard feelings taken.

The reason I would rather see the timed-zap or revert back to the old way is because I am playing IronMage more-and-more, particularly with RandArts.

I can see town-scumming being a cause for concern, but lets be honest, there are always going to be aspects of the game that are "scummable". If you try to close down all the loop holes, you pretty much end up with a game that is un-enjoyable for preventing something else in the game occuring.

I love playing Half-troll mages---so, I love Dreads. Others like playing Hobbits for the HoldLife aspect.... the fact that the game allows so much variation is what keeps it of interest to so many.

Personally, I think increasing variation is a good thing. If someone WANTS to scum going to/from town, resting 4000-10000 turns at 50' waiting for store rotation - fine - let them! It shouldn't be up to the coders to really corral all players into a single refined style of play unless absolutely necessary. (Not trying to put coders down!! )

I just thought/think the way stat reduction / restoration used to be was fine.. didn't / doesn't require alteration to avert 'Town Scumming'.

I think its great, for example, the code allows switches to turn off certain aspects; e.g., you could just take away Restore Stat potions from being sold at shop 4. Or reduce the odds that such potions are sold. But, taking away that aspect completely... well, that seems like you shouldn't have shopping at all then.

[Spacebux]

I used to be a proponent of the timed-stat drain, but cogent arguments convinced me it was a bad idea. If you get drained then all you need to do is go to the town and wait until your stat comes back. This is a problem, because there's no penalty to waiting around in town unless you're playing for low turncount. Therefore, stat draining has a readily available but tedious fix, which is more annoying than fun.

This was the same reason why stat gain was changed. In the old version, you could scum the town until the proper stat restore potion showed up. Enough people thought that was bad gameplay to warrant the change.

You're starting to sound like a 'liberal'.

You are making a case against Blindness and Confusion, et. al., being temporary conditions as well. How many times have you hit a confusion / blindness / slowness / poison trap in the early levels of the game. Did you not stop and rest, waiting for the condition to alleviate itself?? Or, like a "good" player did you attempt to cure the condition right away with a proper potion or mushroom? One could say that resting in the hallways is "scumming".

I'm tired of play-policy being dictated rather than just left to player to decide for himself/herself how best to proceed.

Stair-scumming will happen.
Town-scumming will happen.
Scumming will happen.

New players, e.g., need to be able to scum until they are better adept at the game. Players that don't mind taking their time to get the right set will and ought to be allowed to "scum". That is their style of play.

Its not up to "us" to decide how "others" play the game.

What ought to be decided is how to make the game variable and challenging to those who want to be challenged.

Therefore, stat draining has a readily available but tedious fix, which is more annoying than fun.

I'm not trying to blast you personally, but I want to state very clearly, this is all about how one plays the game. 'Tedious' & 'Annoying' are adjectives that describe the game when one "scums". If one is not a scummer, then the game is not 'tedious'. Tedious is only tedious if you are willing to wait for store stock rotation. I say leave it as is... in fact, the more 'tedious' the game becomes waiting for store stock rotation, the less likely one is to resort to that method of play.

I've seen countless posts to the point that "players are recalling too often!!", or "town scummers need to be stopped!!" or "we need to cull level scumming!!". Players who rely on level or town scumming are not likely to be the stronger players. While I don't consider myself to be an expert player by any means, I know now (having played the IronMan setting a number of times) how to play without recalling to town, ever. I know now, it is not necessary.

Using "play policy" as a means of determining code objectives, I feel, is invalid. Coders could be and should be spending time on other more pertinent projects: not fixing code to enforce play style, which is what this whole change is about.

This change in stat restoration was meant---it seems---to reduce some perceived 'scumming' play-style. In effect, however, it changes the play style of the game in other ways, preconceived or not.

Wow, I'm on a rant now....

[takkaria]

I can see town-scumming being a cause for concern, but lets be honest, there are always going to be aspects of the game that are "scummable". If you try to close down all the loop holes, you pretty much end up with a game that is un-enjoyable for preventing something else in the game occuring.

I wasn't trying to close all loopholes or even to reduce scumming (I generally avoid waiting for restore potions and quite often have drained stats for a while because scumming is really boring).

What I saw was a game mechanic which amounts to "inconvenience until you recall to town and spend 600 AU". I found it deeply boring. There's nothing wrong per se with being boring; but I want Angband to be more fun, and boring things are generally not that fun.

Judging from reports, it sounds like it definitely has made stat drains factor into the late game more. Most of the increases in difficulty in the game come from new mechanics being added in that you have to be protected from with new item abilities, or new monsters requiring new tactics. I think stat drain is now the only mechanic that remains constant throughout the game but whose impact is to make the game more difficult later on rather than one which is overcome with an accumulation of abilities, bonuses or money. I think this is far more interesting than it was before. I appreciate that you liked it (or at least didn't mind it) before, but it's not changing back, for what are pretty good game design reasons.

[Spacebux]

I wasn't trying to close all loopholes or even to reduce scumming (I generally avoid waiting for restore potions and quite often have drained stats for a while because scumming is really boring).

What I saw was a game mechanic which amounts to "inconvenience until you recall to town and spend 600 AU". I found it deeply boring. There's nothing wrong per se with being boring, but it was crying out for some kind of change. Judging from reports, it sounds like it definitely has made stat drains factor into the late game more. Stat restore potions will not be coming back.

Ok, with that prose, I am at peace again..

Still think stat restoration on level up, though, is too generous. 600AU and a trip to town, for those who Recall, is a small price to pay. I'm more of the opinion, though, it teaches players better play practice---over time---how to avoid stat-draining mobs and dangers.

I also think having ones stats drained is, in part, a balancing part of the game.

[bulian]

Sorry if this was mentioned earlier - I didn't fully read some of the longer posts. I personally think this is a fantastic change though I haven't played any nightlies.

Late game stat drains shouldn't be so terrible to deal with due to the increased frequency of stat gain potions at lower levels, unless stat gain potions no longer restore stats (which would seem weird). It seems to me only in the CL25-35, DL 30-60 range that there might be more hiccups.

[Derakon]

Gain-stat potions do still restore stats. Most characters are going to only have three sources of stat restoration: gain-stat potions, mushrooms of Vigor, and gaining levels. There's also the priest spell Restoration (which, IIRC, paladins don't get), the very rare rod of Restoration, and potions of Life (which you won't waste on mere stat restores unless you're in dire straits).

I can see how Spacebux's contention that the new method is more generous applies when you're playing ironman -- there, the early-game difference is marked. And I could believe that it'd be worth splitting Vigor into physical and magical versions. I still feel that the current version is an improvement over the previous version. It should never be optimal play to townscum. Yes, the player has the choice of not townscumming, but most players feel obligated to optimize their play in various ways, which generally ends up including "Don't enter the dungeon in a suboptimal state if you can help it". Thus availability of stat-restore potions in the town means they feel obligated to townscum. Does that make sense? Humans are weird sometimes.

It might be worth experimenting with removing the restore on levelup, in favor of re-introducing stat potions as dungeon-only items that could be found, rarely, at any depth. The difficulty would be in ensuring an even distribution across all depths.