Re-thinking paralysis again.

[buzzkill]

Not that long ago, and probably still in many variants, getting paralyzed led to getting paralyzed again, and so on until dead.

Then (I believe, I hardly ever play V) V changed paralysis to be non-cumulative. So one would not be re-paralyzed while already paralyzed, thus giving the character a much better chance at survival. I didn't feel that this was a great solution and I don't think that I'm alone in that belief. It's counter intuitive to think that the attack that paralyzed you in the first place would not continue to do so.

At some point I came up with the (quite possibly brilliant) idea that paralysis could act kind of like a poison that slows you. The first hit to paralyze would reduce your speed by half+1. Additional hits would reduce by it half+1 again, and so on, until you are effectively or completely paralyzed. The paralysis would wear off (speed would be regained) slowly (+1 speed per player turn).

It should be cumulative with other forms of temporary speed/slow honoring their given (non-cumulative) limitations.

I think that this should make paralysis more fearsome than it's current (V) state, without turning into the insta-death it once was. If you think that it doesn't sound that bad, consider the following.

Assuming normal speed (10), the first hit drops you to 4 (which is bad), the second brings you to 1 (effectively dead).
Assuming speed +20, very quick (30), the first hit drops you to 14 (likely slower than whatever you're fighting), If you don't escape the second hit brings you to 6.5 (very likely dead), the third hit drops you to 3. Even if you manage to teleport or escape some other way, you still have the lingering slowness to deal with.

Having Free Action, of course, means you don't have to worry about any of this (and that's a good thing).

Submitted for your consideration. I'm unaware of this particular approach being discussed or tried before.

[zaimoni]

Phrased in terms of energy recovery rather than speed, this might work.

[Timo Pietilä]

I think that this should make paralysis more fearsome than it's current (V) state, without turning into the insta-death it once was.

While I do like your suggestion, I have to also say that that change would not make it more fearsome than vanilla current form. It is still very close to instant death unless you have excellent saving throw and high AC.

[buzzkill]

While I do like your suggestion, I have to also say that that change would not make it more fearsome than vanilla current form. It is still very close to instant death unless you have excellent saving throw and high AC.

That's what I was going for. Glad to hear it. I wanted FA to remain a high priority. It's not meant to be a happy experience without it, yet probably not death if you escape at your first opportunity.

[Jungle_Boy]

The nice thing about this is that it would allow new players (and people who don't pay attention) a chance to identify paralyzers without losing a character to them.

[EpicMan]

I really, really like this idea. It will still probably kill new players (or new-to-the-change old players) the first time, but subsequent times it changes from "Bang you're dead!" to "Bang! Escape now or die"

It also allows the player to think "hmm, if I can kill this guy next hit, I'm good" and "I need to teleport out of here to recover my speed". It makes the player make a decision with risks on both sides (first is Famous Last Words, and even if you do kill him you could get killed by others nearby, and the second risks teleporting to a room with monsters who will kill you before you speed up).

So this change would introduce a non-trivial decision to the game, and while it makes paralyzers slightly less dangerous (because originally it was one-hit-one-kill) they are still too dangerous to casually walk up and beat to death.

[Pete Mack]

I don't understand why paralysis needs to be "rethought". So long as it is sufficiently dangerous, you need to avoid paralyzers. If you don't need to avoid them it isn't sufficiently dangerous. What you describe is more like stunning (where you are usually guaranteed at least one turn to escape), and we already have that.

[Derakon]

The problem with paralysis is a specific instance of a more general problem: how do you know to avoid instadeaths if you don't know a monster's full abilities the first time you see it? The original big problem paralysis had was that it was practically guaranteed to be fatal the first time a player encountered a monster with a melee paralysis attack -- but this isn't significantly different from poison breath, mana storms, or a number of other gotchas.

The way I see it, we have two choices: either we always show full monster info to everyone, in which case players can see "Ahh, this monster can hit to paralyze and I don't have free action; time to stay the heck away," or we need to make the game more forgiving so that players can discover a monster's abilities without getting killed by them -- which functionally means removing all instadeaths (as defined as "I was wandering around at what I thought was an appropriate depth for my level and equipment and bam, I died").

[cinereaste]

. . . or we need to make the game more forgiving so that players can discover a monster's abilities without getting killed by them . . .

Isn't that what rods of probing are for? Sure, there will probably be a turn where that monster can breathe and kill you if you aren't resisting the right thing, but the dungeon is a dangerous place. Probing is the in-game mechanic where you can find out how dangerous a monster is without it killing you first.

[Tiburon Silverflame]

Isn't the game's "learning curve" one of its fundamental attractions? You don't learn it in one sitting, and you do get surprised. This is why I like some kind of birth option to, say, start at something like CL 8-10, with a reasonable set of gear (some magical stuff but no ego stuff) and a Recall depth of DL 10 or so. The first several levels are learned very quickly, and therefore become tedious; this shortens that, without completely blowing off the entire early game.

[RogerN]

For what it's worth, Cryptband (which nobody plays but me ) has a similar attack in the form of spiders. Most spiders can shoot webs. The first hit will slow you, and a second hit will paralyze. I find it works very well, but I'm biased

But my reasons for implementing it this way don't really apply to Vanilla. Spiders show up a couple levels before free action, and there's no way to reliably detect monsters in Cryptband. Without this system, players would have no way to avoid being instantly paralyzed by a spider in a dark room.

On the other hand, even if the system were not necessary it's still a good way to scare the player without necessarily killing him. Essentially it's a warning: escape now or may end up as spider food.

[Hajo]

T
The way I see it, we have two choices: either we always show full monster info to everyone, in which case players can see "Ahh, this monster can hit to paralyze and I don't have free action; time to stay the heck away," or we need to make the game more forgiving so that players can discover a monster's abilities without getting killed by them -- which functionally means removing all instadeaths (as defined as "I was wandering around at what I thought was an appropriate depth for my level and equipment and bam, I died").

I favor the second approach, to give players a second chance. Angband veterans know everything anyways. But for new players this will be a less frustrating experience then, and they are more likely to stick with the game.

[nullfame]

It breathes. You survive.

I am in favor of instadeath. Player have another chance: start over. If you want to cheat death there is an option for that. Full monster knowledge I'm mixed about. For sure it is the biggest frustration of savefile compatibility. Learning the different abilities creatures have is kinda fun. IIRC there is a cheat option for that too.

I think the status quo (instadeath and grow your own monster memory) is a reasonable third choice and these things, to me, are part of what makes Angband.

[Magnate]

It breathes. You survive.

I am in favor of instadeath. Player have another chance: start over. If you want to cheat death there is an option for that. Full monster knowledge I'm mixed about. For sure it is the biggest frustration of savefile compatibility. Learning the different abilities creatures have is kinda fun. IIRC there is a cheat option for that too.

I think the status quo (instadeath and grow your own monster memory) is a reasonable third choice and these things, to me, are part of what makes Angband.

Don't worry about monster memory: I am quite close to separating it out from the savefile, so this problem will at last go away (please see old thread about "knowledge" and "settings" files).

[Tiburon Silverflame]

I'm not against instadeath, but there are nuances here. The off-screen drolem breathes; you die. That's fine with me. You know there are breathers, you know they can do a lot of damage. You know there are monsters maybe you don't detect (with ESP). Maybe you didn't realize that something like the drolem would show up when it did...but you should've expected something like it in the relatively near future.

Paralysis-created deaths are a bit different, because there's nothing functionally similar to, but not as bad as, touch to paralyze, as it exists now. And there's no warning about what does, or does not, paralyze. Breathers are almost all identifiable: hounds, dragons, vortices. And if you get whacked by a breath from Huan or the Tarrasque, yeah, well, you should be expecting surprises from any new unique that you first see on level 90 anyway. And, the breathers start tiny, and get bigger...baby to young to adult to ancient dragons.

But paralyzers don't give you either warning. I don't think they're narrowly restricted by monster type/color, and there isn't any middle ground between paralyzed and not paralyzed. In a case like this, instadeath is not a good idea. You create paranoia: it's too damn hard to learn *which* monsters can paralyze, so I damn sure get my FA before I have to worry about them.

So, to summarize: IMO, it's a matter of 'advance warning.' Instadeath with no advance warning at all (in the sense of dangerous similar attacks, or hints from the monster itself), is something to avoid, or at least keep fairly well restricted. Instadeath with advance warning, is IMO fine.

If paralyze functions like an accumulating Slow effect, then we actually *do* get a functionally similar but lesser effect...the standard Slow attacks. It becomes an attack you can even include more often, and FA becomes a Really Nice To Have, not an American Express (aka, don't leave Home without it). FA's about on par with rConf in the proposed scenario, and I think that's a good thing.