Bugs in r1683 - debate wanted

[Magnate]

I'd like to see the standard damage dice and multipliers on weapons before ID, and the actual ones after ID.

Yeah ok, I'm with both of you on this now. I'll open a ticket.

[Marble Dice]

IMO this is not tricky at all. Why should a weapon's "normal" dice be visible from across the dungeon any more than its real dice? New players will quickly get the hang of normal dice by looking in shops and finding plenty of weapons. The knowledge menu can help them check whether the one they've just picked up has "normal" dice or not.

I agree with PowerDiver on this one; I've been playing Angband for the larger part of my life and I have no idea what the damage dice are on virtually any weapon. Dagger is 1d4, and longsword is probably 2d5 just because I know it isn't 4d5, which is Ringil. I only know mace (2d4) and maul (4d4) because I've been playing a lot of priests lately.

Look at it this way, all weapons have the same base damage dice. Some weapons have a special mod that adjusts their base damage dice. It's like shooting power for bows. Just because Bard has a x5 mult, does that mean you shouldn't show players longbow (x3) until it's been ID'd?

Of course the game doesn't ever update the multiplier for ranged weapons with shooting power, but that's a different issue. I'd like to see the standard damage dice and multipliers on weapons before ID, and the actual ones after ID.

[PowerDiver]

IMO this is not tricky at all. Why should a weapon's "normal" dice be visible from across the dungeon any more than its real dice? New players will quickly get the hang of normal dice by looking in shops and finding plenty of weapons. The knowledge menu can help them check whether the one they've just picked up has "normal" dice or not.

It's not that you see the dice from across the dungeon. It is that basic info should be given freely and seamlessly to the player without requiring navigating some stupid menu. The essence of a longsword is that it is 2d5, and no newbie should have to expend any effort to figure that out.

Just IMO, of course.

[Magnate]

The tricky part is [again IMO] the player should be shown the "typical" dice so he doesn't have to consult some other thing to see that a scythe is usually 5d3. How do you do that without confusing the issue when the scythe is actually 6d3?

IMO this is not tricky at all. Why should a weapon's "normal" dice be visible from across the dungeon any more than its real dice? New players will quickly get the hang of normal dice by looking in shops and finding plenty of weapons. The knowledge menu can help them check whether the one they've just picked up has "normal" dice or not.

[PowerDiver]

On the other side, I think that dice should only be known at walk-over, not by detection.

There's been talk about when to see dice over the years, but no one has come to any sort of agreement about it. At the moment, IMO it would be most natural to code to see dice the same time you learn plusses, but the framework is available to do it whenever one wants to.

The tricky part is [again IMO] the player should be shown the "typical" dice so he doesn't have to consult some other thing to see that a scythe is usually 5d3. How do you do that without confusing the issue when the scythe is actually 6d3?

[PowerDiver]

Why do you assume activation is a button?

Didn't you see the smiley? I have no clue what it is.

[fizzix]

I could almost go along with this, providing (reasonable INT and) that that the {special} item is the only item on that space. It would be harder to recognize a {special} item amids clutter, or if obscured by another item lying on top of it.

'only item on the space' is complicated by squelch. There may be other items on the space but you don't see them because you've squelched them. If each square is a 10' by 10' block, even if you have 4 sets of armor lying around, none need to be on top of each other.

[Magnate]

On the other side, I think that dice should only be known at walk-over, not by detection. After all, why is a longsword obviously 2d5 when you detect it from across the dungeon but you have no idea whether it's a holy avenger or a +0,+0 piece of junk, even after picking it up.

I am totally with you here. In my current game I am using damage dice as a scumming tool: if I detect no weapons with extra dice, I head immediately for the stairs. IMO all weapons should be listed without their dice being revealed until you walk over them.

[buzzkill]

I'd go a step further and say you should notice {special} on walk-over.

I could almost go along with this, providing (reasonable INT and) that that the {special} item is the only item on that space. It would be harder to recognize a {special} item amids clutter, or if obscured by another item lying on top of it.

[fizzix]

If you can notice an activation on pickup, you should get {splendid} or {special} notice at the same time. I don't know why I thought notice on wield made more sense. Now that you point it out, notice on pickup makes more sense, 'cause you see the activation button sticking out , except that it is inconsistent with the way everything else works via notice on wield. Of course, I also think you should always notice {special} on pickup too ...

I'd go a step further and say you should notice {special} on walk-over. The idea being that you've heard stories of these artifacts so you should be able to recognize them when you're closeby. This ties in directly to uniques having full or near-full knowledge automatically in monster memory. On the other side, I think that dice should only be known at walk-over, not by detection. After all, why is a longsword obviously 2d5 when you detect it from across the dungeon but you have no idea whether it's a holy avenger or a +0,+0 piece of junk, even after picking it up.

Why do you assume activation is a button? Maybe it's a sequence of words that you don't know until you wield the weapon and it implants the formula in your brain.

[PowerDiver]

Sustains can't stop the stat loss from these potions, but the sustain should nonetheless be noticed as a consequence of the effect?

It seems to me that the sustain is equally as relevant as rFire when your max strength is lowered. To me, noticing the sustain makes no sense. I'd say the same for a time attack that lowers the current but ignores sustains.

I guess I don't really care, but it seemed odd enough to add to my bug list.


If you can notice an activation on pickup, you should get {splendid} or {special} notice at the same time. I don't know why I thought notice on wield made more sense. Now that you point it out, notice on pickup makes more sense, 'cause you see the activation button sticking out , except that it is inconsistent with the way everything else works via notice on wield. Of course, I also think you should always notice {special} on pickup too ...

[Magnate]

Could not learn !blindness, either drinking [dwarf] or throwing [did damage]

IMO the former should be solved by learning all effects to which you are resistant - kobolds should learn !poison and dwarves should learn ?darkness and !blindness. The latter is interesting: Sangband has thrown potions confer their effects on the target, so you learn the flavour if a monster is blinded.

quaffed contemplation, losing str, got "ring of strength glows" even though it did not help

Isn't this WAD? Sustains can't stop the stat loss from these potions, but the sustain should nonetheless be noticed as a consequence of the effect? Seems ok to me - but then we know my brain is wired differently to yours.

inspected gloves, told of activation before ever wielded or pseudoed

When do you think you should learn that an object has an activation? This has never been determined, hence this odd behaviour. Personally I find it silly that you should have to attempt activation or wait for pseudo, so maybe you learn on wield?

threw shot, learned slay on ground, not in pack

aimed wand at dragon, killed it, saw it with infra not light, no awareness [was wonder]

learn awareness on say "wis+2, do not get full id until rewield it

These are all pretty straightforward ID bugs I think.

need to see both fast and slow indicators when under speed spell and inertia so you don't quaff an extra !speed thinking it ran out

But Fast and Slow occupy the same place on the status line ...

[PowerDiver]

Here's the contents of my BUGS file.


could not learn !blindness, either drinking [dwarf] or throwing [did damage]

quaffed contemplation, losing str, got "ring of strength glows" even though it did not help

inspected gloves, told of activation before ever wielded or pseudoed

threw shot, learned slay on ground, not in pack

aimed wand at dragon, killed it, saw it with infra not light, no awareness [was wonder]

learn awareness on say "wis+2, do not get full id until rewield it

need to see both fast and slow indicators when under speed spell and inertia so you don't quaff an extra !speed thinking it ran out

[Magnate]

Ok, here are the ones I still consider outstanding bugs:

1. I get garbage messages in the message recall window when I drop items in my home - as if the name of the item I dropped is made up of unprintable characters: like "You drop @$^{Y@#%^P". Doesn't seem to happen in any other store.

Reported as trac.rephial.org/ticket/977 - ooops, this was a duplicate ticket. Fixed in r1703 thanks to Marble Dice.

4. The object knowledge menus do not include the special artifact flavours under rings and amulets, thereby immediately giving away when a new flavour is an artifact. IMO this is a bug, and the artifact flavours should be included on the knowledge menus.

Reported as trac.rephial.org/ticket/979 - outstanding.

6. The "recall" function in the artifact knowledge menu is borked. It should give you your current knowledge of the artifact, but at the moment it gives you very little (because it uses the make_fake_artifact function and it's not picking up the flags). I intend to correct this to use known_flags, as it should be uncontroversial.

Reported as trac.rephial.org/ticket/976 - fixed in r1701.

7. The recall of ego items is broken too, because the tval is not set for the dummy item. (It says "it causes your melee attacks to slay undead" for weapons, when it should just say "slays undead".) I intend to correct this too.

Reported as trac.rephial.org/ticket/294

8. Cancelling use of ?ID takes turn. Also "you have nothing to identify" takes a turn. IMO neither of these should take a turn - like trying to melee while afraid. Anyone agree? (ISTR this was changed recently for the spell, so that mana is not wasted if you have nothing to ID.)

Reported as trac.rephial.org/ticket/980 - the mana thing wasn't fixed, but there is at least already a ticket for it.

9. Inscriptions are parsed wrongly in stores (@b5!d!k!v results in "really try...?" when browsing in home, and is totally ignored in others)

Reported as trac.rephial.org/ticket/862

[PowerDiver]

You have to check whether the menu item is the aware version "sleep" aware or the unaware version "zyx abc", and then call the appropriate function.