What am I doing wrong?

[Knight]

I've killed off the last four warriors I've had to really stupid deaths. The first three died because they were paralyzed, but the last one had FrAct so he got roasted by hellhounds instead. Here's his dump below:

 Name   Mors Kyriak                              Self  RB  CB  EB   Best
 Sex    Male         Age             21   STR:  18/36  +4  +3  +2 18/126
 Race   Half-Troll   Height          91   INT:     14  -4  -2  +2     10
 Class  Warrior      Weight         272   WIS:  18/43  -2  -2  +2  18/23
 Title  Myrmidon     Social     Unknown   DEX:     11  -4  +2  +0      9
 HP     -63/349      Maximize         Y   CON:     12  +3  +2  +2  18/10
 SP     0/0                               CHR:     12  -6  -1  +0      5

 Level               29   Armor    [63,+51]     Saving Throw         42%
 Cur Exp          69381   Fight   (+16,+17)     Stealth              Bad
 Max Exp          69381   Melee   (+27,+30)     Fighting       Legendary
 Adv Exp          90000   Shoot    (+20,+0)     Shooting          Heroic
 MaxDepth   2100' (L42)   Blows    3.0/turn     Disarming            45%
 Game Turns      149313   Shots      1/turn     Magic Device          31
 Standard Turns   18233   Infra       30 ft     Perception       1 in 33
 Resting Turns     2527   Speed           3     Searching            23%
 Gold             19210   Burden  150.8 lbs

 Your mother was a Cave-Troll Warrior.  You have slime-green eyes,
 dirty sea-weed green hair, and black scabby skin.



rAcid:....+........ Nexus:.............
rElec:............. Nethr:.............
rFire:............. Chaos:.............
rCold:+.+.......... Disen:.............
rPois:........+.... Feath:.............
rLite:............. pFear:........+....
rDark:............. pBlnd:........++...
Sound:............. pConf:.........+...
Shard:............. pStun:.............

Light:.....+....... Tunn.:.............
Regen:............+ Speed:+............
  ESP:............. Blows:.............
Invis:+........+... Shots:.............
FrAct:...........+. Might:.............
HLife:............. S.Dig:.............
Stea.:+............ ImpHP:.............
Sear.:.........+...  Fear:.............
Infra:............+ Aggrv:.............


  [Last Messages]

> Something slams against a door.
> You hear a door burst open!
> Something slams against a door.
> You hear a door burst open!
> The Hellhound breathes fire.
> Some of your Scrolls of Phase Door (i) were destroyed!
> The Hellhound breathes fire.
> Something slams against a door.
> You hear a door burst open!
> The Hellhound breathes fire.
> Low hitpoint warning!
> *** LOW HITPOINT WARNING! ***
> One of your Scrolls of Identify (k) was destroyed!
> The Hellhound breathes fire.
> You die.

Killed by a Hellhound.

  [Character Equipment]

a) the Spear 'Nimloth' (1d6) (+11,+13) <+3>
     Found lying on the floor at 1200 feet (level 24).
     
     +3 stealth, speed.
     Slays undead.
     Branded with frost.
     Provides resistance to cold.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Blessed by the gods.  Grants the ability to see invisible things. 
     
     
     Combat info:
     3.0 blows/round.
     With +0 STR and +1 DEX you would get 3.4 blows
     Average damage/round: 126.3 vs. undead, 126.3 vs. creatures not
     resistant to cold, and 104.2 vs. others.
     
b) a Long Bow (x3) (+4,+0)
     Dropped by a Blue yeek at 1200 feet (level 24).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
c) a Ring of Ice [+13]
     Dropped by a Mage at 1400 feet (level 28).
     
     Provides resistance to cold.
     Cannot be harmed by cold.
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
d) a Ring of Slaying (+7,+4)
     Found lying on the floor at 2050 feet (level 41).
     
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
e) an Amulet of Resist Acid
     Found lying on the floor at 600 feet (level 12).
     
     Provides resistance to acid.
     Cannot be harmed by acid.
     
f) a Lantern (3374 turns) <+2>
     Dropped by a Shadow drake at 1650 feet (level 33).
     
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     
     Radius 2 light.
g) Partial Plate Armour (-3) [40,+0]
     Found lying on the floor at 1550 feet (level 31).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid.
     
h) a Fur Cloak [3,+3]
     Found lying on the floor at 2000 feet (level 40).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
i) the Leather Shield of the Haradrim (+5,+5) [9,+15] <+2>
     Dropped by a Spirit troll at 2000 feet (level 40).
     
     +2 strength, constitution.
     Provides resistance to poison.
     Provides protection from fear, blindness.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Sustains strength, constitution.
     
     When activated, it puts you in a berserker rage for d50+50 turns.
     Takes 65 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 83.3%
     
j) the Iron Helm 'Holhenneth' [7,+10] <+2>
     Dropped by an Ancient gold dragon at 2050 feet (level 41).
     
     +2 intelligence, wisdom.
     +10% to searching.
     Provides protection from blindness, confusion.
     Cannot be harmed by acid, electricity, fire, cold.
     Grants the ability to see invisible things.  
     
     When activated, it detects treasure, traps, doors, stairs, and all
     creatures nearby.
     Takes 72 to 143 turns to recharge at your current speed.
     Your chance of success is 87.3%
     
k) (nothing)
l) a Pair of Iron Shod Boots of Free Action [4,+10]
     Found lying on the floor of a cavern at 1300 feet (level 26).
     
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     Can be destroyed by acid.
     Prevents paralysis.  
     


  [Character Quiver]

n) 21 Bolts (1d5) (+4,+6)
     Found lying on the floor at 1600 feet (level 32).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid.
     
o) (nothing)
p) (nothing)
q) (nothing)
r) (nothing)
s) (nothing)
t) (nothing)
u) (nothing)
v) (nothing)
w) (nothing)


  [Character Inventory]

a) 2 Mushrooms of Second Sight
     Dropped by a Hill orc at 1950 feet (level 39).
     
     
     
b) 2 Mushrooms of Clear Mind
     
     
c) 16 Potions of Cure Serious Wounds
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
d) 4 Potions of Cure Critical Wounds
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
e) a Potion of *Healing*
     Found lying on the floor at 2000 feet (level 40).
     
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
     It can be thrown at creatures with damaging effect.
     
f) a Potion of Restore Life Levels
     Bought from a store.
     
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
g) a Potion of Speed
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
h) 3 Potions of Berserk Strength
     Can be destroyed by cold.
     
i) 9 Scrolls of Phase Door
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
j) 5 Scrolls of Satisfy Hunger
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
k) 21 Scrolls of Identify
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
l) 3 Scrolls of Word of Recall
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
m) 2 Rods of Frost Bolts
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
n) 2 Wands of Acid Bolts (20 charges)
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
o) a Wand of Lightning Balls (5 charges)
     Dropped by a Spectre at 2000 feet (level 40).
     
     Cannot be harmed by electricity.
     
p) a Wand of Teleport Other (7 charges)
     Found lying on the floor at 2000 feet (level 40).
     
     Can be destroyed by electricity.
     
q) 3 Staves of Mapping (12 charges)
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
r) a Staff of Teleportation (7 charges)
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
s) a Staff of Speed (5 charges)
     Found lying on the floor at 2000 feet (level 40).
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
t) 3 Staves of Identify (19 charges)
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
u) a Cloak [1,+2]
     Dropped by Farmer Maggot in town.
     
     Can be destroyed by acid, fire.
     
v) a Pair of Steel Shod Boots of Speed [7,+3] <+4>
     Dropped by a Water troll at 2050 feet (level 41).
     
     +4 speed.
     Cannot be harmed by fire.
     Can be destroyed by acid.
     


============================================================
                   CHAR.
|   TURN  | DEPTH |LEVEL| EVENT
============================================================
         1      0'    1   Began the quest to destroy Morgoth.
      2726    150'    2   Reached level 2
      3390    150'    3   Reached level 3
      3390    150'    4   Reached level 4
      6712    200'    5   Reached level 5
      8149    300'    6   Reached level 6
     10721    450'    7   Reached level 7
     13279    450'    8   Reached level 8
     28081    600'    9   Reached level 9
     33294    600'   10   Reached level 10
     40332    700'   11   Reached level 11
     46338   1200'   12   Reached level 12
     48778   1200'   13   Reached level 13
     50200   1200'   13   Found the Spear 'Nimloth'
     50547   1200'   14   Reached level 14
     50922   1200'   14   Killed Grip, Farmer Maggot's dog
     51062   1200'   15   Reached level 15
     51151   1200'   16   Reached level 16
     51799   1200'   16   Killed Orfax, Son of Boldor
     54898   1300'   17   Reached level 17
     56665   1300'   18   Reached level 18
     60634   1350'   19   Reached level 19
     61333   1350'   20   Reached level 20
     67514   1400'   21   Reached level 21
     71901   1450'   22   Reached level 22
     73637   1500'   23   Reached level 23
     74311   1500'   23   Killed Sangahyando of Umbar
     74374   1500'   24   Reached level 24
     94688      0'   24   Killed Farmer Maggot
     97799   1550'   25   Reached level 25
    109095   1650'   26   Reached level 26
    118463   2050'   26   Reached level 26
    121654   2050'   27   Reached level 27
    125223   2050'   28   Reached level 28
    125649   2050'   28   Reached level 28
    134314   2050'   28   Found the Iron Helm 'Holhenneth'
    139692   2000'   29   Reached level 29
    141619   2000'   29   Found the Leather Shield of the Haradrim
    144077   2000'   28   Killed Uvatha the Horseman
    144077   2000'   29   Reached level 29


  [Options]

Maximise effect of race/class bonuses        : yes (birth_maximize)
Randomise the artifacts (except a very few)  : no  (birth_randarts)
Restrict the use of stairs/recall            : no  (birth_ironman)
Halve view and spell distances               : yes (birth_small_range)
Restrict creation of artifacts               : no  (birth_no_artifacts)
Don't stack objects on the floor             : no  (birth_no_stacking)
Lose artifacts when leaving level            : no  (birth_no_preserve)
Don't generate connected stairs              : no  (birth_no_stairs)
Don't show level feelings                    : no  (birth_no_feelings)
Items always sell for 0 gold                 : yes (birth_no_selling)
Use previous set of randarts                 : yes (birth_keep_randarts)
Monsters chase recent locations              : yes (birth_ai_smell)
Monsters act smarter in groups               : yes (birth_ai_packs)
Monsters learn from their mistakes           : no  (birth_ai_learn)
Monsters exploit player's weaknesses         : no  (birth_ai_cheat)
Monsters behave more intelligently (broken)  : no  (birth_ai_smart)

What am I missing? Am I doing anything wrong? It takes me from 1:30 to 2 hours to make a decent character but after that they tend to die around the two hour and fifteen minute mark. Is it because I'm diving too fast? Not fast enough? Or just getting careless?

tl;dr: What should I do to stop dying careless deaths like the one above?

[Derakon]

Well, you had no resistance to fire and you were at 2100'. That's liable to be problematic. Warriors have good hitpoints and offense, but they can't afford to ignore defense entirely. Resistance to the "basic 4" elements (fire/cold/acid/electricity) is more or less required to survive past a certain point; it reduces damage from those elements to 1/3rd normal. Warriors can put it off for awhile, but if you want to go past 2000' then you'll need to play very carefully.

Keep an eye out for shields or armor of Resistance or Elvenkind; they provide resistance to all four basic elements (and Elvenkind also gets a random "high" resist like shards or nether).

[Philip]

Yeah, essentially, you should realize that defense is your most important aspect. The most important parts of defense are: escapes (preferably foolproof), one-shot resistance(HP and resistances) and then staying power. You should always have as much teleportation as you can get, along with as much of telepathy, free action, see invisible, rbase, pblind, pconf, pstun, rpoison. You don't need to, and even almost certainly can't have all of these, but try for as many as possible. After that you get to focus on killing stuff a little. Don't forget the law of big numbers. One in a thousand monsters will kill you is nasty if there are five thousand monsters.

[Malak Darkhunter]

I avoid Hellhounds whenever possible, I hate them and they can be extremely dangerous...the thing about this game is that their are some monsters you should just avoid whenver possible, sometimes it isn't, but if you stand and fight just remember just like Derakon has said make sure you have your resists covered, that part is very important.Always have a method of escape as well.

[Derakon]

Philip: while defense is important, the main thing is to avoid things that can one-shot you or get you stuck in a tailspin. That is a much shorter list than the things you listed, and basically boils down to:

* Basic 4 resists, and resist poison, because the unresisted damage from these can be so high.
* Free action, since being paralyzed is almost always a death sentence.
* See Invisible, since not being able to see monsters that can see you is always a bad idea.
* Some form of monster detection (e.g. telepathy) so you can see nasty monsters before they can attack you.

For the rest, you just want hitpoints, ways to cure status ailments (i.e. potions of Cure Serious/Critical Wounds), and a staff of Teleport so you can get out even if you're fighting a monster whose melee attacks hit to blind/confuse. Everything else, if you're given a choice between improving your offense or improving your defense, you should choose the offense. Reason being, the faster you kill monsters, the less damage they can do to you.

Certainly most of my characters do without pConf, pBlind, and pStun for their entire lives. They are not vital; they just mean you can go without the Staff of Teleportation.

[Knight]

I think I see why I'm dying these careless deaths. As warrior I tend to play very fast and with an extremely strong offensive. Resists I don't worry about too much--if I find an item with resists I'll take it more often than not, but really, I'm not actively defending too much. I try to keep staves of teleportation on hand, as well as of course phase door, but that's pretty much the extent of my defensive strategy (healing potions being a given).

In the future I'll definitely be sure to focus more on defense than offense, especially when it comes to resists and making sure I have basic Free Action and See Invisible.

I think maybe i'll post a progress thread on my half-troll warriors so I can learn from the experience. Is the IRC channel for Angband active any more? I should probably lurk around there too...

Edit: Another question I just thought of. I tend to hit '2000 fairly quickly, often before I get decent resists (as evidenced above). Should I scum around there for basic resists or take more time on my way down?

[debo]

On top of what the rest have said (and relative to this specific death) -- if you see hounds, just GTFO. They're awful, they're absolutely no fun, they don't drop anything, and the XP isn't worth it. Their symbol is 'Z' for buZZkill, or possibly ZZZZZZZZ

Edit: You were actually doing OK with resists, but you were missing 2 of the basic ones (Elec and Fire) which I would personally want by 1500'-2000'. It's possible that if you didn't value these, you just didn't keep any swaps around with them b/c IIRC they're fairly common in the early game -- if not as drops, then in the stores.

[MattB]

I'll throw in my two cents' worth, for what it's worth, which isn't very much!

I still live by the golden rules that people used to recite 10-15 years ago. Rules that have now been soundly trashed by the experienced giants of this forum who know much better than I. The problem being that I'm just not a good enough, or careful enough, player to dive like they do. However, these old rules still work fine for me (not that I've won more than a couple of times, mind you).

So here are MY golden rules for getting out of the 1st 40 levels:

1) Don't go past dlvl20 without FrAct, SInvis and rbase (i.e. acid/fire/cold/elec).

2) Don't go past dlvl30 without rPoison

3) Don't go past dlvl 40 without your most important stats maxed.

4) Within rules 1,2 and 3, dive as fast as you can

I know I'll probably be ridiculed for being so old-fashioned and cowardly, but maybe once I've mastered this approach I'll have a go at this new-fangled diving malarkey!

Either way, if you're struggling to get out of the first half of the dungeon, it's not a bad way of looking at things.

Hope it helps.

[Knight]

Thanks for the input, Matt. I'm gonna be honest here, though--your system sounds painfully slow for me. I don't always have a lot of time to play Angband but when I do I kill my characters quite often (perhaps because I'm impatient) so I don't like to spend too much time looking for equipment.

However--

It may just be a vicious cycle, where I get impatient because I don't put the time into my characters and thus have them die quickly, causing me to be more impatient, etc. I think with my current character I'm going to try to follow your advice and see what comes of it.

[Derakon]

Part of it is just a question of how much you value each character. The more cautious you are, the more likely any given character will win. On the flipside, an intelligent aggressive player will win with a character much sooner than the cautious player will.

The important thing, when playing aggressively, is to learn from each death.

[fph]

After playing for a while, I've got the feeling that there is a sort of "phase change" around 1500'-2000' in Angband. Lots of new things start to appear there: more dangerous packs of hounds, things that can one-shot you, lots of new damage types and resistances.

This will require new playing techniques: for instance, being more careful about the fights you pick, realizing that you have to rely on detection not to be one-shotted to death, realizing that ?teleport (and even worse _teleport, which has a fail rate) is not a safe escape because it can land you in a more difficult situation that you started with.

So you'll need some time to get used to this new style, and in the meantime you'll die a lot.

Being aggressive and diving fast is an effective way to learn because:
(1) you minimize the ratio between the time you spend in the "early game" and the time you spend in "mid game" (1500'-2500'), so you learn faster.
(2) it forces you to be always in a state of tension, "something could still kill me if I'm careless" rather than "ok, I can relax, I know how to handle everything at this depth". This is important because after 2000' there will *always* be something that kill you in at most two shots if you get the wrong dice rolls.
(3) it teaches you not to become too attached to a character
(4) getting through the early game faster is, in itself, an exercise that will improve your playing style.

TL;DR: don't expect everything to be easy-peasy after you pass 1500'. It's a whole new game down there.

[Nomad]

Yep, I think around 1500'-2500' is actually the toughest part of the game for keeping warriors alive. In the early game you can fearlessly crush almost anything in melee. Later on you'll have the chance to cover nasty resistance holes, increase your stats, and get speed and damage boosts and better detection. But there's a horrible stretch in between where suddenly the monsters get much tougher and your stats and equipment haven't caught up yet.

Sounds like your play style is similar to mine; personally I don't have the patience to hang around on earlier levels waiting to get just the right equipment or build stats, so I just keep heading downwards fairly steadily. So, firstly, just get used to dying a lot at this point. It's not necessarily that you're doing much wrong, just that the game takes a big difficulty bump at this stage and it's particularly hard on warriors. One advantage of playing fast is that it doesn't hurt nearly so much to have a character killed because you haven't sunk so much time into hanging around and building them up. And the more characters you burn through, the more you'll get the hang of judging situations at this depth and adjusting to the new playstyle you need to survive past the easier early game.

In the meantime, some slightly more practical tips for surviving the nasty patch:

* Do what you can to cover the base four resistances. It's difficult until you find your first armour/shield of Resistance or Elvenkind, but you should definitely keep any items with resists you find so you can juggle your kit to cover as many as possible. Use your amulet slot for Resist Acid or Resist Lightning, since none of the other early amulets are much use to a warrior. Generally, Lightning > Acid unless you have already have Res Lightning from another source, since acid damage is reduced by armour.

* That said, I always prioritise damage output over resistances, so I rarely wear rings of Fire and Cold Resistance for long. I will generally wear rings of Reckless Attacks as soon as I find them, keep those until I get rings of Damage, and then keep those until I get rings of Speed.

* My one exception to the 'damage over everything thing' is Free Action. As soon as you've got a source of Free Action, wear it, even if it means taking off a ring of Damage or gauntlets of Slaying. It's worth keeping multiple different sources of FA so again, you can juggle the equipment you're wearing to cover as many things as possible.

* Get used to the assumption that you might have to run away. Use Door/Stair detection and or Mapping to make sure you always know where the nearest stairs are. Never be without Phase Door, and carry both scrolls and staves of Teleport if you find them. (Scrolls are guaranteed no-fail, staves can be used if you're blind and or confused.) Rods/Staves of Curing are also good to make sure you're able to read your scrolls, and some sort of ultimate emergency escape is worth carrying if you can find it - Teleport Level, Destruction, even Deep Descent in a pinch.

However, the most difficult thing about escaping - and I'm still very bad at this part - is recognising when the danger's too great and doing it early. If you keep determinedly bashing away in melee combat till you're down to your last 50HP and then teleport away, odds are very good you're going to land next to something that will immediately eat you. The correct time to teleport and run is as soon as That Thing You Definitely Don't Want To Fight wakes up or comes into view, even if it hasn't started hitting you yet. (For future reference, packs of hellhounds are very high on the That Thing You Definitely Don't Want To Fight list even with Fire Resistance. They leave no drops, they destroy your equipment, they do big damage, run awaaaaaay.)

[Derakon]

Nomad's advice is good, though I would say that rather relying on Curing, you should carry stacks of CSW and CCW (Cure Serious/Critical Wounds). The difference being that potions have no failure rate, and also restore some HP. In fact, phasing out of line of sight and shotgunning potions is a decent way to extend your combat survivability. Just remember to save some potions for taking care of status ailments!

[Knight]

@fph: You make some really good points that are encouraging, especially at this stage of the game. It really is a different game after '1500 or so--and I'm slowly coming to grips with that. In the mean time, I will keep your words in mind and try not to be too disheartened each time I lose a new character.

@Nomad: Wow, information dump! The various points you mentioned will go a long way towards keeping my warriors alive, i think. I especially like the point about having multiple sources of Free Action so I can equipment shuffle. That's another thing I really don't like doing, equipment shuffling. I like to save all my slots for consumables like ?Phase and HP potions and things. Ultimately though I guess all the HP potions in the game wouldn't help if you get paralyzed or one-shotted or something. i guess I'm going to have to get used to it since it seems like that's what a lot of people do to cover holes in their equipment.

@Derakon: Indeed, drinking a lot of potions in a row is an awesome way to extend fights if you're low on HP. The only thing I find to be an issue with that is that sometimes, if I'm already full, I'll wind up at Gorged and -10 speed. Not fun. I guess ?SatisfyHunger can take care of that, though...

Thanks for all the input, guys! I'm slowly working up a new Half-Troll Warrior who's doing pretty good. Hopefully all your advice will help him not die soon.

Edit: I uploaded my most recent warrior to the ladder, if you want to take a look. Any advice pertaining to him in particular would be, as always, greatly appreciated.

Another edit: Craziest vault I've ever seen:



Any suggestions? I want to try to teleport the Beholder hive-mother in the top row away and loot only said top row, and leave the rest, but I'm not sure if I should even come close to the vault. There's so many goodies, though...

[Derakon]

Keep your "redundant" items (e.g. extra sources of Free Action) in the home, not on your person. No need to take up backpack slots with them since you only need to swap them in when you're doing a major equipment shuffle. Usually swap gear is for when you have an item that's inferior to your normal gear except that it provides some important ability. E.g. the Beaked Axe of Theoden isn't a great weapon, but it gives telepathy, so it can be worth carrying as a swap -- wield it when exploring, switch to a weapon with more killaciousness when in combat.

As for being gorged, well, 3.5 removes the Gorged status and the corresponding -10 speed. Otherwise, just make certain you don't overeat. Satisfy Hunger will put you just below the Gorged status, so it'll "cure" you up until you drink another potion...