Lief, the High-Elf Ranger

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  • Tiburon Silverflame
    Swordsman
    • Feb 2010
    • 405

    #16
    I'd argue even a +10 RoS isn't strictly better, by considering the alternatives. For the boots, not counting the artifact boots, the 2nd best choices would be either FA or Stability. FA's not that hard to find, and nexus resist is nice, but not critical. For the rings, you've got poison resistance, bodykeeping, soulkeeping, stat boosting, and damage...all of which can be very attractive. To be sure: the RoS would trump these, considered in isolation, but if you have a 3rd speed boosting item you'll use anyway, you may have enough speed with only 2 of the 3 items. In that scenario, the ring alternatives may give considerably more.

    I also agree that 48K is much too low. Now...part of this may be the store-related issues...high Char giving too much of a discount, coupled with a favorable storekeeper/@ race interaction. Flat percentage adjustments break down when you start talking very high-ticket items like this.

    Still...at most, this is maybe 20%? So the baseline price would be more like 65K or so, perhaps. Well...that's a little more reasonable, as that's the combined cost of a very nice weapon (e.g. HA katana) and very nice armor. But, given that +6 speed is a compelling mid-game quality, and +9 end-game quality, the price structure should reflect this. Perhaps this means something like 400K for the +9 boots, and 150-200K for the +6 boots...so a general form might be 2^(b/3) * 50,000, where b is the bonus. Or 2^(b/2) * 25,000...+1 would be 35,000 or so, +10 would be 800,000.

    Another option is something other than a completely simple die roll for the bonus. Something like a normal distribution, especially where the mean of the distribution is affected by the generation level. We can probably let +2 or +3 boots show up occasionally in the armor shop, or on an early dungeon level. And conversely, we don't want to see +2 boots on DL 80. A hypothetical normal distribution for speed might be (doing everything in floating point math til the end):

    mean == 1 + DL/20
    std dev == DL / 100

    Comment

    • Wisp
      Scout
      • Jul 2007
      • 47

      #17
      Things have been going well for Tharn. He found Amras (+1 speed, always nice), Dal-i-thalion, which covers chaos, nether and confusion, all of which I need, so I'm using that. I lost 4 speed, but I need those resists. I just finished clearing out a vault that yielded a +4 "Trickery and a bunch of high-selling items, including two copies of Raals, so I spent it on a !Exp in the store. I also found 3(!!) !Augmentation, so stat gain is nearing completion.

      The only thing I'm questioning is whether I should be wearing Hammerhand (which I found) or not. I have a +2 wisdom helmet, and wearing hammer would drop my savings throw from 100%, give me 100 more HP (550 to 650) and aggravate monsters. I'm not sure if the aggravation is worth the boost, given my resists. Does item-granted aggravation haste all monsters around me, or does it just wake everything up?

      Anyways, onwards with adventure.
      Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum.

      Comment

      • Magnate
        Angband Devteam member
        • May 2007
        • 5110

        #18
        Originally posted by Timo Pietilä
        I was quite serious with that comment. Speed is the most valued flag in an item, it trumps everything else. In an armor without any drawbacks that is doubly so.

        There are only two items that are better than +9 BoS: +10 BoS and Feanor.

        In older vanilla BoS +9 would have cost that much if not more. 48k is way too low price, it needs fixing.

        Speed item price should be some sort of exponential function. +1 is not extremely valuable, but +10 is something everyone wants.

        Start with 2000gp, go with 100% increase for each addition.

        +1 2000
        +2 4000
        +3 8000
        +4 16000
        +5 32000
        +6 64000
        +7 128000
        +8 256000
        +9 512000
        +10 1024000
        I used to agree with this, but then Eddie convinced me through powerful argument that the value of speed is linear - i.e. every point is worth precisely as much as every other point, anywhere.

        So if you want +10 speed to cost 1M, how about 100k per point?
        "Been away so long I hardly knew the place, gee it's good to be back home" - The Beatles

        Comment

        • Wisp
          Scout
          • Jul 2007
          • 47

          #19
          All right, picked a fight with Uriel and Azriel (in an anti-summon corridor of course), and after running through my mana pool about 3 times, I decided to alter reality and bail. I need a more powerful way to deal damage to non-evil creatures than my pitiful priest melee. I couldn't deal with all the healing that fight required with how slow my damage was going AND keep up glyph of warding to deal with my lack of HLife for azriel while slowly chipping away from Az.
          Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum.

          Comment

          • Timo Pietilä
            Prophet
            • Apr 2007
            • 4096

            #20
            Originally posted by Wisp
            All right, picked a fight with Uriel and Azriel (in an anti-summon corridor of course), and after running through my mana pool about 3 times, I decided to alter reality and bail. I need a more powerful way to deal damage to non-evil creatures than my pitiful priest melee. I couldn't deal with all the healing that fight required with how slow my damage was going AND keep up glyph of warding to deal with my lack of HLife for azriel while slowly chipping away from Az.
            Azriel is one of the toughest things to kill in whole Angband for a priest. You need big-dice melee weapon to be effective fighter against top angels (including archons). I prefer MoD of extra blows (or fury) to deal with them or from artifacts Glaive of Pain. Before I have melee-weapon of that caliber I don't even try.

            Comment

            • Wisp
              Scout
              • Jul 2007
              • 47

              #21
              Hmm, I found the gauntlets of Eol, which give me Fire immunity, so I'm tempted to lug them around and smack Uriel a new one when I see him. Azriel was really nasty, but if I TO him while fighting Uriel I should be okay, I think.

              Update: Uriel is dead.
              Last edited by Wisp; November 18, 2011, 15:55.
              Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum.

              Comment

              • Wisp
                Scout
                • Jul 2007
                • 47

                #22
                I found a Mace of Disruption of Flame with +20 dam... and promptly got it disenchanted to +15. TT_TT I also found vilya and feanor, but I can't use the latter, because I need the chaos/nether resist from my current boots. I'm at +21 speed normally, however, and I have a rod of speed that does nicely. Anyways, just trying to take down some of the nastier uniques before I deal with Sauron/Morgoth.
                Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum.

                Comment

                • Derakon
                  Prophet
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 9022

                  #23
                  Chaos and nether resistance are not worth missing out on Feanor's speed bonus. Use the boots.

                  One of the important things to realize about Angband is that many resists are luxuries, not necessities. Covering every resistance is nice but not remotely necessary.

                  Comment

                  • Therem Harth
                    Knight
                    • Jan 2008
                    • 926

                    #24
                    Though I've found Chaos resistance to be very useful at times. Unresisted Chaos breaths from Jabberwocks *hurt*.

                    Comment

                    • Derakon
                      Prophet
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 9022

                      #25
                      That's as may be, but Jabberwocks and other heavy chaos breathers are rare -- and the resistance, like nether resistance, isn't especially reliable. Meanwhile, FĂ«anor's +15 speed will help you against every enemy. Would you rather take less damage from 5% of your enemies, or move twice as fast as 80% of your enemies?

                      Comment

                      • Wisp
                        Scout
                        • Jul 2007
                        • 47

                        #26
                        Ugh. Just got myself killed by Sauron. That was completely avoidable. :/ I'm so angry at myself.
                        Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum.

                        Comment

                        • ghengiz
                          Adept
                          • Nov 2011
                          • 178

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Wisp
                          Ugh. Just got myself killed by Sauron. That was completely avoidable. :/ I'm so angry at myself.
                          urgh, that hurts...so near to the Big Boss I'm sorry for you

                          Comment

                          • Wisp
                            Scout
                            • Jul 2007
                            • 47

                            #28
                            I was careless and didn't notice he tossed out a plasma bolt... Then he hit me with a mana storm which dropped me under by 11hp. OTL
                            Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum.

                            Comment

                            • myshkin
                              Angband Devteam member
                              • Apr 2007
                              • 334

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Magnate
                              I used to agree with this, but then Eddie convinced me through powerful argument that the value of speed is linear - i.e. every point is worth precisely as much as every other point, anywhere.
                              "He breathes argument powerfully. You agree."

                              Comment

                              • LostTemplar
                                Knight
                                • Aug 2009
                                • 670

                                #30
                                I used to agree with this, but then Eddie convinced me through powerful argument that the value of speed is linear - i.e. every point is worth precisely as much as every other point, anywhere.

                                So if you want +10 speed to cost 1M, how about 100k per point?
                                Well, actually cost (and rarity) should be exponent of power for all items. It is simply because item giving +10 to something is infinitely better then 10 items with +1.
                                Though I've found Chaos resistance to be very useful at times. Unresisted Chaos breaths from Jabberwocks *hurt*.
                                If the alternative is something like sound resistance, then maybe. All high resist togather barely worth about +5 to speed, any single one is lower then +1. Confusion & poison resists does not count, they are somewhat more valuable.
                                Last edited by LostTemplar; December 7, 2011, 14:10.

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